Doug wrote:
On 09/03/2014 12:50 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:On 9/3/14, Lisi Reisz <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:On Tuesday 02 September 2014 17:06:58 Steve Litt wrote:By and large, yes. If you want to communicate with developers, communicateSo, Lisi, is it your contention that the developers don't look at this list, and don't care what's written on it?with developers. Some of them hang around here. But it is not the way to communicate with them. Don't deafen poor defenseless users. This list isforsupport of users, not the lobbying of developers. There are other lists.OK, guys. What is the best way to communicate with developers, not just in the Debian crew, but devs from other popular systems, like Ubuntu, PCLOS, Centos, etc. BTW: I get the impression that the most serious charge against the systemd people is not that systemd is different, or even that it subsumes other files and apps that up to now were free-standing, but that it makes the entire system more difficult if not impossible to troubleshoot, due to the tremendous interdependence of apps, plus the lack of readable logs. But I'm not a dev, maybe I'm wrong.
That sure seems to be a major concern to me. Not as a dev, but as a system admin. Udev alone still gives me headaches, at times. <sarcasm> I can't wait to see what kind of headaches I'm going to have once it's bundled together with systemd. </sarcasm>
By the way, a quick perusal of the debian-devel and debian-boot archives shows that systemd is causing a respectable share of headaches for developers - including things like udebs (install-time modules) that can't load because systemd is not available at boot time, systemd-shim being way behind (making it rather hard to run without systemd as PID1), and so forth.
As a sysadmin (user) that kind of thing is going to have lots of impact in terms of how I have to recofigure servers as I update them.
A steady stream of information about what impacts systemd is going to have on our systems, and how to work around these, is incredibly useful -- and I really don't care if it's accompanied by (IMHO well-deserved) complaints about systemd.
On the other hand, I really wish those who only seem to know how to say "stop talking about systemd" would kindly shut up. It's a pain having to sort out and delete all those useless messages from threads that are otherwise useful -- my delete-key finger is getting tired.
Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra