Re: testing wants to install systemd
On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
> On 11/20/13, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2013-11-20 at 21:00 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
>>> http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html
>
>> I'm using systemd for a very long time now, the content of the above
>> link is complete bogus, since it does ignore the real issues.
>>
>> However, I won't discuss it again.
>
> If you post a link to these "real issues" you discussed, then that is
> useful for a constructive discussion.
>
> Otherwise, your "real issues" are just hearsay/ handwaving.
> [...]
I guess, Zeenan, that you are trying to be reasonable, since you admit
that you too had problems in the transition and end up not using it
now. (I did understand you right about that?)
But the biggest-myths link you posted is the systemd leader himself
engaging in a litany of naked assertions, telling the world why his
baby is not ugly. Naked assertions have no particular virtue over
hearsay and other forms of handwaving.
The closest thing he offers to proof of any of his points is
unsubstantiated boot-up times. Now, if the rest of his assertions were
as commonly accepted as the boot-up times, we could overlook the
general hubris in that post.
One minor quibble with his myths, the *nix shell languages are not
arcane, no more arcane, at any rate, than C itself. The odd syntax for
conditionals has a reason. Every programming language has it's
reasons, and failure to understand them makes them appear odd. But odd
is not arcane.
Now, perl can be arcane, but Lennart didn't address perl at all. He
didn't really address sh either, come to think of it, just waved his
hands at it.
Program source can be arcane in any language, and this is one point he
totally misses. It's kind of representative of the way he keeps
failing to see the forest for the trees --
Initialization files have syntax. They may not form turing complete
languages, but they do form a language. (Yes, we call XML a language.)
Any language can be used in arcane ways. The quickest way to make a
language arcane is to try to force it to into contexts the language
design ignored.
That's one of the things that ends up monolithic about systemd, by the
way, forcing the common init syntax.
I realize I am starting a deconstruction of his arguments, and I don't
have time for that.
Systemd offers a framework. If Lennart had not been so insistent that
everyone had to test his baby now, on their production systems, we
might have had time to refine the framework as a community. As it is,
I'm not as optimistic about it as Ralf.
--
Joel Rees
Be careful where you see conspiracy.
Look first in your own heart.
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