Re: Which OS? Was "I do consider Ubuntu to be Debian" , Ian Murdock

[Greg Folkert <greg@gregfolkert.net>]

On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 19:39 +0200, Joe Hart wrote:
> Douglas Allan Tutty wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 05:41:45AM -0700, Michael M. wrote:
> >> On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 16:42 -0400, Michael Pobega wrote:
> >>> On Mon, Mar 26, 2007 at 11:35:02AM -0700, Michael M. wrote:
> > 
> >>> If Debian worried about sticking to a schedule rather than
> worrying
> >>> about the stability of the product, you'd hear about a few more
> >>> missing astronauts and a couple of billion dollars gone from (I'm
> >>> going on a limb here) some bank data centers. Obviously this is
> all
> >>> worst case scenario, but it's what Debian is primarily made for.
> >> Which begs the question, "Is Debian made for me?"
> >>
> >  
> >> What has made Debian a great fit for me over the past months is its
> >> beefed up efforts to make testing a more viable option for users
> (for
> >> example, by providing security updates for testing).  I started
> using
> >> Etch some months ago, perhaps close to a year ago, pulling in just
> a few
> >> packages from unstable, and it has been a great fit for me.  Until
> the
> >> past few months, when it has increasingly come to seem stale to me.
> >> It's only natural, then, for me to question whether *I* really fit
> in
> >> with your definition of "We the Debian people."
> >>
> > 
> > Why don't we reframe this as:  What is the best OS/Distro for
> Michael?
> > 
> > Perhaps you have some conflicting needs that requires a non-standard
> > answer?  I _think_ that what I hear that you want is:
> > 	
> > 	More recent software than what is in stable or testing (when its
> > 	frozen).
> > 
> > 	Less dynamic than Sid
> > 
> > What about:
> > 	
> > 	Debian stable or testing to run your hardware with a *buntu in a
> > 	chroot?  Gives you a base OS that won't crash but more recent
> > 	software.
> > 
> > Is Linux for you?  What about one of the BSDs?  I've been looking at
> > OpenBSD; they release every 6 months (their Release is like Debian's
> > Stable), with security update (source patches) as necessary.
> Following
> > every security update even if it doesn't apply to you, you end up
> > running their Stable.  Their Current is like Debian's Sid. 
> > 
> > They can release every 6 months because they only focus on the main
> OS.
> > Third-party stuff (upstream) is in packages (binary) and ports
> (source
> > tarballs pre-tweaked to compile properly on a given release level).
> > Using the ports and packages system is supposed to be similar to
> > using aptitude from the command line.  It brings in whatever
> > dependancies there are, compiles anything required, and installs it.
> > It also will uninstall.
> > 
> > It sounds to me like this may be a viable option for you:
> > 
> > 	Stable, reliable, OS
> > 
> > 	Upgraded every 6 months
> > 
> > 	Fairly recent third-party software.
> > 
> > So tell us what your ideal OS would be and do.  There's enough
> cross-OS
> > experience on this list to give good suggestions.
> > 
> > I'm not marking this thread as OT since a discussion on why Debian
> may
> > not be working for someone, and what a user's needs are, is
> important
> > for Debian folks.  So lets _not_ have a flame fest.  Lets help a
> debian
> > user with a fundamental problem: his OS isn't doing what he needs it
> to
> > do.
> 
> Very eloquent Doug.  I agree completely with you.
> 
> If someone is looking for recent software, and stability, then Lenny
> might be an option when it comes out, but until it does, Etch might be
> the best fit.  Sid is not "frozen" as Etch is, but is very cold at the
> moment, so even Sid does not offer the newest software like it should.
> For example, OOo is 2.04 in Sid, while 2.1 has been "stable" for
> months
> and 2.2 just released.

Xfce is also much newer than in sid or etch. Perhaps you'd be interested
to know about experimental. GNOME in experimental has crept up to 2.18.
2.2 OO.o has rc stuff right now, a bit buggy due to mixed RCs, but very
soon 2.2 released will be there. Xfce is at v4.4 and is very nicely
shaped up.

> The problem with Ubuntu is that while it is based on Debian, several
> key
> items are different (restricted modules, sudo/root, etc.) to make it
> not
> appealing to many Debian purists.

There are other reasons Debian purists don't like Ubuntu. Me, I don't
like it because of the importance of Deadlines, though with an RC
process, but not without a bunch of compromises that hurt it badly in
many instances. Such that upgrade *sometimes* can be a serious headache.
Having had to fix quite a few upgrades gone wrong with Ubuntu, I get the
bad parts much more.

I see the biggest problem, people NOT wanting to test the upgrade
process as the releases aren't very long between them. This then brings
out the "missed" bugs, especially with regards to "non-main" packages
and 3rd party "non-universe/multiverse". Screamers, scream "5UXX0RZ",
not realizing that they screwed themselves going outside the system. But
still blame others.

Debian reduces this, as 19,000+ packages encompass most of those
problems Ubuntu experience. Even with 3rd party things like
"Debian-Multimedia" actually use buildd exactly (well almost exactly)
like the Debian proper does.

> Sidux on the other hand offers 100% compatibility with Debian, and
> some really smart people helping smooth any bumps one might experience
> with it.  Sidux is Sid, with a custom kernel and a few really good
> scripts.

I'd like to see most of those improvements make it back into Debian.
They are compatible, though *some* of the kernel whacks aren't.

> For Debian people who might be afraid of running Sid, Sidux might be
> just the answer that they were looking for.  However, I would have to
> admit that it might be dangerous, and Etch is the safe bet.  It might
> not have the latest packages, but it will work as promised.

I have to say that as an experienced Sid (with experimental sprinkled in
regularly) user for many years, if you are scared to run Sid... "Grow
some hair on your chest, that includes the women!"

No, really, Sid typically isn't for the faint of heart. A few weeks
after Etch release, Sid is gonna be a bumpy ride for a month or more.

"To infinity^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HLenny... and beyond!"
-- 
greg, greg@gregfolkert.net

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