Re: next debian stable ?
On Tue, Apr 29, 2003 at 08:57:59PM -0500, David Krider wrote:
> Nathan E Norman wrote:
[ snip ]
> >I don't understand what curve you are living behind. Can you seemlessly
> >upgrade your redhat or suse box, as you can do with debian? If you are
> >running servers, debian stable is sufficient for most tasks. There are
> >plenty of people who are backporting packages from sarge/sid to woody,
> >so if you _must have_ the latest and greatest software (I cringe to
> >think how many people deploy such software in a production environment
> >_without testing it_), that software is available. If it isn't, you can
> >grab the source and compile it yourself; no other distribution I've ever
> >used respects admin changes as well as debian. I can install stuff in
> >/usr/local and use dpkg-divert to prevent dpkg from surprising me, or I
> >can create my own packages (this is useful when you need to deploy your
> >home-grown software to several machines).
>
> 1) How many times have you "seamlessly upgraded" your Debian boxes to a
> new version? Given the historical release schedule of the project, it
> CAN'T have been more than once. For all the hassle I've had with
> learning the structure of the Debian system, I could have paid for fresh
> installs or SuSE or Red Hat several times over.
Apparently you aren't reading what I write. I've been using debian
since rex, that's 1995. I've upgraded numerous boxes several times.
I've run stable, unstable, testing, hybrids, as needed. Most often I
keep production machines running stable. Most of these machines are
still running, and never needed to be reinstalled. Apology accepted in
advance.
Again, if you think debian is a waste of time, QUIT USING IT. Why
people persist in beating their heads against the wall is beyond me.
> 2) See my points above on Apache 2. I suspect I'm not alone...
I just spent 35 seconds at apt-get.org and found someone who has
backported apache2 to woody.
> 3) Maybe rpm-based systems don't respect admin changes _as well as_ apt,
> but before major changes, you should have a backup of your config
> anyway. My personal taste is to let it overwrite my changes with a fresh
> file, then merge my changes back in. I've been doing that for quite some
> time, and I was doing it on Debian too.
That explains why you're having trouble working with debian. No
offense intended, but you haven't got into the paradigm yet. More
than anything, debian is about how an operating system should work.
This is evident from the numerous architectures and non-linux ports
which comprise debian.
> 4) You can modify and repackage rpm's too.
But apparently you don't; your refrain seems to be "debian doesn't
have everything packaged that I want, so it sucks." Am I not
understanding you?
> >Admittedly debian on the desktop is a tougher proposition; often newer
> >XFree86 is needed to support new hardware. Again though, backported
> >packages exist.
>
> I don't trust non-official backports on *any* system, including Windows.
Why not? If you trust a maintainer to upload a package to debian,
don't you trust that same developer to backport a package? I just
don't understand that.
> >I have a bias towards the server side of the equation as I believe
> >that's where debian has, and will continue to make inroads in
> >corporate-ville.
>
> You're joking, aren't you? There's no way a corporation will come
> anywhere within miles of using Debian for heavy lifting. Support is the
> big issue here. Unless you go get Progeny to build a custom Debian
> distro and subsequently support it, you're hosed. On top of that, most
> "corporate" type software, like big RDBMS and CAE software (both of
> which we are using) have very specific support requirements, and guess
> what? Debian stable won't fulfill them in many cases.
Gosh, I guess I was imagining things at my former employer. I guess I
was delusional when I spoke with other people who assure me they are
using debian within their companies. I conclude I misunderstood the
news report that IBM and HP are using debian internally for all linux
development.
Companies that think support equals 'someone to sue" just don't get
it, and never will. Companies who think support equals a toll-free
number don't get it, or don't employ admins who get it.
At one of my prior employers, they "got it" that debian was well
supported when I showed them the numerous forums available for
support; compared to BSDi which we were running at the time it was
night and day. We qucikly moved to debian, and they are still running
debian several years after I left.
Regarding support for Oracle and the like: see my other email for
some ideas on how debian can solve that problem (it is a problem).
However, it would help if people in general would get it through their
head that linux != redhat. LSB should help in this regard.
> >All in all, if you decide it's not worth it to you, we (at least I)
> >won't be angry.
>
> I never thought anyone on this list would be. In fact, I'm surprised I
> haven't heard, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" yet. ;-)
No, we are (at least I am) just saying "If it doesn't work from you
and you are unable to provide a solution, feel free to find (and use)
something that _does_ work for you. No hard feelings." Really,
whether the job is done is the ultimate criterion; if debian does
everything I want but nothing you want, than debian is not for you.
This does not invalidate my debian experience however.
> >I hope this explains my position. Good luck with debian, and with linux.
>
> Thanks for your strong opinion. Even though we wind up disagreeing, I
> certainly respect where you're coming from.
Hmm, some of your word choices would indicate otherwise.
Nevertheless, best regards,
--
Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:nnorman@incanus.net
NEWS FLASH: Scientists decode the first confirmed alien transmission
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until entropy reaches its maximum!"
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