Re: X

["Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>]

on Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 07:35:52PM +0000, Pigeon (jah.pigeon@ukonline.co.uk) wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 06:37:02AM +0000, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> > on Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 05:43:42PM -0700, Glenn English (ghe@slsware.com) wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2003-03-23 at 14:54, Leo Spalteholz wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Sorry this won't help you but I've always wondered why debian does
> > > > this.  You install xdm and the defualt is to boot straight into a
> > > > graphical login.  Why??  At the very least it should ask you when
> > > > installing if you want to start up into  X.  
> 
> Well said.
> 
> > Debian assumes you wouldn't have installed X if you didn't want it
> > starting automatically. 
> 
> Why? It's reasonable for Windoze to be installed with "BootGUI=1"
> because you can do naff-all in DOS mode. But with Linux you can do
> MORE from the command line than the GUI tools. The assumption is not
> justified. The GUI becomes something you can use when you need it (web
> browsing, gimp, etc) rather than something you have to use all the
> time.

As several people have noted (and I should have written -- I know
better):  Debian assumes if you install an *X displya manager* (xdm,
gdm, kdm, wdm, etc.), you want it to run.

And in general:  Debian assumes a certain level of familiarity with the
system.  If you're advanced enough to know that you have the option to
choose or avoid a GUI boot screen, you'd be assumed to know how to deal
with the situation (or where to go to ask).

There *are* a number of consumer-grade GNU/Linux distributions, aimed at
the newbie.  A surprising number (Lindows, Xandros, Progeny, Corel
GNU/Linux) are or have been based on Debian.

> For me, one of the great attractions of Linux is the power of the
> command line. When I first installed debian (slink) I didn't bother
> installing X for quite a while, until I needed it for something that
> produced graphical output. The next time I rebooted and got a
> completely unexpected graphical login, I was both shocked and furious.
> 
> This question is asked pretty often on this list, so it seems
> reasonable to assume that plenty of people do not want to boot
> straight into X.
> 
> > And that you'd know how to disable it from
> > doing so via update-rc.d.
> 
> How is someone who has just installed it for the first time supposed
> to know this? Plenty of people don't. We know they don't, because
> they keep asking the list.

...where, it might be said, we're happy to answer.

...and, it might be added, a Google search will reveal such resources
as:

> >     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/xdm-disable.html
> > 
> > 
> > > > A friend of mine recently installed debian and whenever he rebooted
> > > > it started x and then hung his machine.  He doesn't have enough
> > > > experience to know how to circumvent this and therefore had to do a
> > > > complete reinstall.  
> 
> Which is what would have happened to a friend of mine recently if I
> hadn't done the installation for him and known to take out xdm.
> 
> > Silly boy.  Debian doesn't require reinstalls.  Hell, a friend trashed
> > his /var partition and recovered (well, rebuilt) without a reinstall.
> > Not recommended.  But possible.
> 
> The two abovementioned friends, being totally new, did not know this...

It seems to be your beef is this:

  - Debian is accessible enough that newbies (either to GNU/Linux, or to
    Debian), can use it.

  - Such admins can make significant modifications to the base system,
    readily, via apt-get, dselect (though we'd recommend against it),
    aptitude, synaptic (IIRC), and other package manager front-ends.
    Note in general that this level of configurability  *isn't*
    available in, say, Red Hat, SuSE, or Mandrake (all RPM based
    distributions).  At *many* technically minded shops, and by this I
    include webhosting companies with years of experience, VA (Research|
    Linux|Software|Whatever), and Red Hat itself, SOP is to do a kitchen
    sink install.  RH's own default of managing X display managers
    through inittab is in part testiment to the difficulty of managing
    packages via RPM.  It was the ease with which I could install, and
    delete, packages from Debian which sold me on the distro in 1999.

  - That with this power at hand, admins get themselves into situations
    thay're not fully familiar with.  And they don't ask questions in
    the right places.

Ignorance is cureable, idiocy isn't.  I don't expect people to know the
intricacies of Debian straight off the top.  I *do* expect a clued
system administrator to start looking at docs, asking the local guru,
searching Google, and online support fora when their system starts
acting in ways that aren't immediately obvious.  I also expect that
they'll be reasonable and respectful in their online discourse.

Yes, it's an educational issue.  If you can think of a better way of
addressing this, I think we'll be receptive.

Note in the case you'd mentioned, you *installed additional software*,
then noted a change in behavior.  My first attack would be to
double-check what I'd just installed, and see if maybe something got
onto the system I'd not anticipated.

<Additional confusion over X v. [xgkw]dm elided>


> > X is only installed if you request it.  And as with other services, when
> > installed, SysV init is updated so that the service is automatically
> > started.
> 
> ... so that *xdm* is automatically started. Which you don't actually
> need on the machine at all. But the new user doesn't know this. Even
> if they notice that xdm has been installed along with X, they'll just
> assume that it's been installed because you do need it. Which you
> don't, unless you've asked for a graphical login. Which is a choice
> you don't get offered.

At this point we part company:  a system admin (note that they're not
just a user, they're administering the system) needs to have a basic
situational awareness of what they have on their system, and what it's
doing.  I'm not saying this is a trivial task.  I'm saying that if
you're not up to the challenge, you're in no position to be
administering your own system.  Either pay someone else to do so for
you, or use a prepackaged system which you don't modify.

Peace.

-- 
Karsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com>        http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?
    "The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't"
    -- HHGTG