Re: X

[Pigeon <jah.pigeon@ukonline.co.uk>]

On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 06:37:02AM +0000, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> on Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 05:43:42PM -0700, Glenn English (ghe@slsware.com) wrote:
> > On Sun, 2003-03-23 at 14:54, Leo Spalteholz wrote:
> > 
> > > Sorry this won't help you but I've always wondered why debian does
> > > this.  You install xdm and the defualt is to boot straight into a
> > > graphical login.  Why??  At the very least it should ask you when
> > > installing if you want to start up into  X.  

Well said.

> Debian assumes you wouldn't have installed X if you didn't want it
> starting automatically. 

Why? It's reasonable for Windoze to be installed with "BootGUI=1"
because you can do naff-all in DOS mode. But with Linux you can do
MORE from the command line than the GUI tools. The assumption is not
justified. The GUI becomes something you can use when you need it (web
browsing, gimp, etc) rather than something you have to use all the time.

For me, one of the great attractions of Linux is the power of the
command line. When I first installed debian (slink) I didn't bother
installing X for quite a while, until I needed it for something
that produced graphical output. The next time I rebooted and got a
completely unexpected graphical login, I was both shocked and furious.

This question is asked pretty often on this list, so it seems
reasonable to assume that plenty of people do not want to boot
straight into X.

> And that you'd know how to disable it from
> doing so via update-rc.d.

How is someone who has just installed it for the first time supposed
to know this? Plenty of people don't. We know they don't, because
they keep asking the list.

> For more:
> 
>     http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/xdm-disable.html
> 
> 
> > > A friend of mine recently installed debian and whenever he rebooted
> > > it started x and then hung his machine.  He doesn't have enough
> > > experience to know how to circumvent this and therefore had to do a
> > > complete reinstall.  

Which is what would have happened to a friend of mine recently if I
hadn't done the installation for him and known to take out xdm.

> Silly boy.  Debian doesn't require reinstalls.  Hell, a friend trashed
> his /var partition and recovered (well, rebuilt) without a reinstall.
> Not recommended.  But possible.

The two abovementioned friends, being totally new, did not know this...

> > > I would think that especially debian would adopt a policy of having
> > > automatic boot to X disabled by default. Every other distro will at
> > > least ask you.

I agree. It *should* ask. Why doesn't it?

> It is.

No it isn't.

> Debian doesn't install X by default.  Ergo:  X doesn't start by default.

That's not "disabled". That's "not installed". Course it doesn't
flippin' start if it's not installed!

And when it is installed, automatic boot to X is *enabled* by default.

> X is only installed if you request it.  And as with other services, when
> installed, SysV init is updated so that the service is automatically
> started.

... so that *xdm* is automatically started. Which you don't actually
need on the machine at all. But the new user doesn't know this. Even
if they notice that xdm has been installed along with X, they'll just
assume that it's been installed because you do need it. Which you
don't, unless you've asked for a graphical login. Which is a choice
you don't get offered.

Technically, xdm is only installed if you request it. Practically, the
new user struggles and swears with dselect and doesn't notice that xdm
has been selected, or the significance of it. Nor do they realise that
they don't need it, especially given dselect's obstinacy over
suggests/recommends. Or they just use tasksel, and know even less
about what's going on. Hit the Button That Makes It Work, reboot, X
can't handle the motherboard's onboard video adapter, machine is
useless.

> > After spending the afternoon in the Debian /etc directory, I'm
> > inclined to agree with Evi Nemeth et al who claim Debian's init
> > process leaves a little something to be desired, readability-wise.
> > It's such a mess that I'd volunteer to fix it if I thought I knew
> > enough.

Can't agree here... when I got hit with the graphical login thing it
didn't take me too long to get from 'ps ax' to 'rm /etc/rc?.d/S99gdm'
(slink, remember).

Pigeon