[Apologies, this is all off-topic for debian-devel and I should have set an appropriate MFT from the beginning. Corrected now.] On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 09:59:55AM +0200, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > Firstly, I was notidied via mail that the message was initially private (but > it was not, if I understand what you say, and since I read it). I am sorry > for this as your thread should have been private and would not have created > such situation. I would not have had any feedback if it had been private, > sure. If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that because someone has taken my private messages, without my consent, and posted them to a public mailing list, *I* am worthy of reprimand with respect to conduct on public mailing lists? You asked "both sides" to de-escalate in the context of the Debian mailing lists, when only one party had escalated anything on Debian mailing lists. I am not defending my particular private messages as appropriate to post on a Debian mailing list. I also did not post them to a Debian mailing list. They would have been off-topic and noise and there is no reason to subject the rest of the Debian community to such a distraction. > Secondly, and I let others CT members confirm or not, the author of this > message is now under attention, so that such facts do not happen again. I > am not sure anymore (so much things happent last week about mailing > lists), but the person may be under a possible ban or ban by listmasters. > If he is not, the mail I sent requested him to stop, and if he does not, > actions needs to be taken categorically. Banning this person, who is not a member of the Debian community in any way, from our mailing lists, seems like a perfectly appropriate course of action; and if this has been done, I appreciate the listmasters' action in this regard. But it would have been perfectly applicable for the Community Team to engage directly with the listmasters to achieve this effect, *instead of* publicly calling for de-escalation from "both sides". > Anyway, even if we struggle against transphobia, and that is a central > point of our CoC and our general action as a CT, when the public mails > become insulting, with words such as "shit" or others personal injures, > are not acceptable anyway. Even if such a tone defends a minority, it > does not help Debian to be a welcoming community. The good thing is to > report such mails, in particular when becoming public, and ban the person > who is author of such attacks against transphobic or any other form of > diversity. Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people regardless of who they *are*. It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless of the *idealogies they express*. Nazis can fuck off. I will reserve the right to tell nazis to fuck off, in private or in public according to what I deem most appropriate and effective, up until the point that the Debian Project kicks me out, or until it becomes clear to me that the Debian Project is no longer worth defending against nazis. If the Community Team thinks there is a list of words that are unacceptable under any circumstances on Debian mailing lists, then they should publish the list of those words for transparency. And they ought to work with the listmasters to implement this as an automatic filter instead of a post-hoc persecution of Debian project members based on content they have sent. I do hope that it includes the phrase "freedom of speech", which has been used to do much more harm to our community than "shit". > > Hi all, > > > > After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response > > (and discussion). > > > > The facts are these: > > > > - an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other > > people) a private, unsolicited email sharing his views on the current > > topic of the day. > > - I responded, privately, telling him exactly what I thought of him and his > > views. > > - He in turn forwarded my private responses to a public mailing list > > without my consent. > > > > The response by Jean-Philippe, a member of the Debian Community Team, was a > > call for de-escalation and civility "by both sides"; i.e., tone policing. > > > > While I am no oppressed minority who is going to be turned away from Debian > > as a result of such tone policing, a member of the Community Team tone > > policing an ally who is categorically rejecting transphobia sends a very bad > > message to trans members of our community. It shows that responding to > > transphobes by communicating using strong language that the Debian community > > rejects their views leaves one potentially subject to censure from the > > Community Team. > > > > I think the Community Team should do better. > > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:21:32PM +0100, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Please descalate, it is an emergency. The RMS debate is very difficult for > > > many people I guess, painful or, at least, energy consumer. It often results > > > to ghoughts about the compliance of some mails with the code of conduct. But > > > those 2 mails are clearly not acceptable from the formal point of view. You > > > cannot let yourself dominate by your badest feelings, injuring each other > > > etc. I am sure that is completely out of the code of conduct. Be respectful, > > > avoiding to say words such as "shit" "fuck" "fascist", and please try > > > staying moderated. Debian will be a welcoming community if anyone can > > > express his opinons politely and others reply politely, with respect, even > > > if he disagrees. So really, descalte! If the thread is so abrasive, just > > > don't reply, ignore, I am sure it will not change your daily life in your > > > team or in the project. Or wait some hours before doing it. But again, such > > > wordings are unacceptable, regardless the topic itself and the ideas. Keep > > > in mind you speak publicly and your mails stay in archives forever. > > > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Jean-Philippe MENGUAL > > > Debian Developer non uploading > > > Community team member > > > Accessibility team member > > > debian-l10n-french team member > > > President of Debian France non-profit organization > > > Le 26/03/2021 à 20:22, Michael Shigorin a écrit : > > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:23:21AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:14:16PM +0300, Michael Shigorin wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:18:19AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: > > > > > > > > You absolutely have NO right to speak for all of the community > > > > > > ..so do go and apologize for the attempt in public. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I tell you that you're humanophobic by claiming someone > > > > > > > > is "transphobic". > > > > > > > Fuck off, nobody asked you for your shitty fascist opinion. > > > > > > > > > > > It's *you* who's a fascist here. > > > > > > Go read the definition and look at what *you* do. > > > > > > > > ...e.g., http://dictionary.com/browse/fascism > > > > > > > > > > Both of my grandfathers actually fought Nazi and Japanese > > > > > > invaders. Looks like none of yours ever confronted them -- > > > > > > they would have raised you a human, not a fascist. > > > > > > > > > > > But you will learn the hard way. > > > > > > > > > > > Good luck. > > > > > > > > > > Not very good at fucking off, are you? > > > > > > > > Yep. > > > > > > > > Jonathan, I hereby demand that the Debian Project gets rid > > > > of this manipulative, insultive, divisive and libelous member. > > > > He (them? it?) can't even stand by the rules (pro|im)posed. > > > > > > > > I'm considering providing financial support to Chris Punches > > > > and asking him to not omit suing Steve Langasek by chance: > > > > http://web.archive.org/web/20210326090023/https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io/issues/2250 > > > > (of course the issue was deleted, mindless as it could be). > > > > > > > > > > -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org
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