Re: [External] Re: ThinkPad laptops preinstalled Linux
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256
On Fri, 2020-06-12 at 17:12 -0400, Mark Pearson wrote:
> On 6/10/2020 2:59 PM, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> - Audio is a constant headache (instead of earache).
> - Graphics is frequently fun. Nvidia cards definitely add a challenge
> but I think that's improved a lot. OLED panels are throwing up some issues.
> - Power management - suspend and resume, energy certification. Hibernate
> right now seems broken/not supported well which I suspect is going to be
> an irritant to a lot of users.
Hibernation doesn't work with Secure Boot at the moment (there's no
infrastructure in the Linux kernel to verify that you're not resuming to an
“unsigned” memory image). Not sure how much people hibernate these days anyway
(I did that a lot on workstations but quite never on laptops)
> But ethernet, wifi, bluetooth, touchpad, thunderbolt, USB, touchscreen,
> card readers, thermal, secure boot, apps, firmware, fingerprint,
> camera...the amount of stuff packed into these devices still amazes me -
> and there is always something that crops up.
Indeed but I have the feeling, again, that most stuff is needed in the kernel,
and most of the stuff are required upstream first.
For the current generation, are those fixes already in upstream projects and
we're talking about how to include them in Debian (preferably stable). Or does
the work need to be done upstream?
> > If you have experience on what was really needed in recent ThinkPads
> > it might be useful to reach out to relevant teams. I only have
> > hands-on experience with X250 (documented in the link I gave on my
> > first mail), which is a bit old now I guess (I have hands-on
> > experience on an X280 but it was maybe 18months after it was released
> > so basically everything was already working just fine)
> We're going though this on our 2020 platforms right now so it's an
> interesting point. I think I can safely say that it is constantly varied
> :) The impression I get though is this year things are going more
> smoothly than last year - I'd like to claim that this is because we are
> more experienced.....I might be kidding myself.
>
> I should document it though - right now my gut feeling is I can't point
> to one or two candidates and go "they always cause trouble". It's truly
> varied
>
> An interesting question. I'd actually like to bounce that back at the
> community. After all - if the aim is to have platforms that work with
> Debian the people who are going to want these are likely to be Debian
> folk (you're not the first choice for Linux noobs ;))
>
> I have some ideas but is there a 'wishlist' or guidance on which
> platforms are the most popular? Either Lenovo specifics (makes my life
> easier) or general "it should have at least xxxx".
My gut feeling is that the X and T series are the most popular. I'm myself was
quite fond of the X series because of the small form factor, but I've not yet
touched a 13.3" version (X390/X13). And indeed the X1C seems popular as well.
I'd say Debian folks also are a bit traditionalist and didn't appreciate some
of the changes (like lowering the number of USB ports, moving to a dongle for
Ethernet, stuff like that) so maybe people have moved from X to T for that.
>
> Anybody want to setup a Debian survey? :)
Same as Paul, it might make sense to setup one on survey.debian.net
> > - - making sure “current” generations products work fine on Debian
> > stable/Buster, so they could be “qualified” to ship with Buster
> > preinstalled (I'm unsure how realistic it for current products, but
> > making sure *they* work is a first start I guess) - - making sure
> > “next” generation products work fine on Debian stable/Buster so they
> > could be qualified to ship with Buster preinstalled (maybe a little
> > more realistic but I guess it also depends on the timescale) - -
> > making sure “future” products work fine in Debian testing (Bullseye)
> > so once it's released the products can be qualified on it and
> > hopefully ship with Bullseye preinstalled
> This makes sense but I'll be honest - I haven't run Buster on anything
> in a long time. For me too much doesn't work (touchpad, graphics, audio,
> networking usually). I go straight for Bullseye and then to unstable and
> sometimes to experimental.
As a (Debian) developer I run sid on my machines because I need and want to be
aware of what's currently changing, but I'd say the target should still be the
current stable versions, and if some stuff need backporting which should try
to do it. In some cases it's not that problematic to include support for new
hardware to a stable/LTS Linux kernel, but someone has to test and propose it.
In other cases indeed it's definitely not possible. But again for things like
CPU/GPU support it's more of an Intel/AMD/(NVidia) stuff.
>
> > For “current” products I guess we mean everything until the 2020
> > generation (so including X13/T14/T15, I don't really know that much
> > the rest of Lenovo lineup). For those I assume there would be no NDA
> > needed (and actually there might already be some hardware in the
> > hands of relevant people). For “next” I guess it depends a bit on the
> > timescale and the level of upstream support already here. For
> > “future” it's even more true, and my guess would be that most of the
> > stuff need to be done by Intel (and AMD) people first.
> Yep.
> So we have a few platforms coming out in the next few months. X1 Carbon
> is usually high on users wish list - but maybe that's less the case for
> developers? (I personally quite like mine...)
> The P series with the mobile workstations are nice machines too - but
> they can be beasts.
I never owned one of those personally but inded I've seen X1C at conferences
quite a lot.
>
> > So I'd say “current” and maybe “next” are the most realistic if you
> > want to start somewhere.
> I'm wondering if I/we can choose a couple of "next" and try that and see
> what happens - but I need to go and shake some branches internally and
> probably have some conversations off mailing list (I like doing
> everything in public but...not sure Lenovo is quite ready to have all
> plans in the open - maybe I'm overthinking it)
Yeah, go ahead. As I said, it might be easier to start with something which
doesn't require a lot of paperwork.
>
> Full honesty disclosure - this month is nuts. I want to give some time
> to this but please be patient if responses are slow. I wrote most of
> this email yesterday but didn't get to hit send until....now
>
Ack. No urgency either I think :)
Regards,
- --
Yves-Alexis
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE8vi34Qgfo83x35gF3rYcyPpXRFsFAl7l5tUACgkQ3rYcyPpX
RFv0VQf/RaIzYiaPaCKp842gO4IVdLBAyQT+cKWuDq99elMDyhoSrkXbJc9STAqu
II+fppv4+bde3u02xfsEbAO+WuZ912+/PE7TgOv28STObu38YScVWQrOIOLpiat2
OCrWZJqkaRby0t7PvsNztzmtkbfMmYMlFiYx9iRfX0RZnCelwR5uIqGcjxevNXcW
XpOr5GIHCnpxqSTEVF5604NRlyioNCrQLqd8e2n6dnUuZSTolfW2v4F2rihyiQZt
uRI6NlMq6ZCiS2OUyttlrIdrM0yeqKoffDkw7T038DJDAPmTbYQFLT0lOoIXH5OC
W2e/VbG4OgMyquYOYqahF/Dtqlsu8w==
=p4T7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Reply to: