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Re: irc.debian.org

On Sun, Aug 18, 2002 at 11:26:16PM -0400, Vaidhy Mayilrangam wrote:

> Usually, I stay away from all discussions of this sort.. but this one
> seems to be too political for Debian's own good. 

What makes it "political" any more than any other Debian discussion?

> For what I understand, most attacks on OPN seem to come from people who
> do not like lilo (on a personal basis). Furthermore, the relationship
> between OPN and Debian is symbiotic. We both contribute to the growth of
> free software. 

My complaints about Lilo are based on his actions, not ad hominem attacks. 
I have been IRCing since before OPN existed, and have never sought nor been
offered any official network position such as server administrator, sponsor,
or IRCop, on any network, including OPN.  The channels I run on OPN have
never been the victim of Lilo's bullying, nor have I personally.  Therefore,
there's little room to claim that I bear any grudge.

I have asserted that Lilo was trying to make OPN people pay for his car.  In
fact, that appeal is still at www.somegeek.org, which is the website his
fundraising appeals repeatedly referenced.  His car payment, according to
that website, is a $450/mo.  Now I have a brand-new car, with a short-term
loan, and my car payment is about half that.  I feel that if you're asking
the user community to support you, the least you can do is not lead an
extravagant lifestyle.  Note that the next paragraph is a lie; he has used
notices/wallops to solicit donations.

I have asserted that Lilo is trying to raise funds from OPN users to pay for
his personal expenses.  See the above paragraph.

I have asserted that Lilo cannot run OPN well.  That is a point of fact,
evidenced by the need to raise funds.  It is not a personal attack.

> I can understand and appreciate lilo's goal of trying to make OPN more
> professional and that takes money. All the channel does is send two

What exactly is "unprofessional" about IRC networks 4 times the size of OPN,
or about GimpNet, or OFTC?

Does it take an expensive car?  Heck, in the US, you can find a car that
works for $450 *total*, not $450/month.  It would not be nice, but it would
get you from point A to point B.

> messages per day (and making it a big deal is IMHO overreacting). GNU
> sells books and requests that people buy them. I do not see anyone
> complaining about it. 

RMS does not ask me to pay for his car, nor his cell phone, nor his DSL. 
And he doesn't even send a message to me twice daily asking me to contribute
to the FSF.

> Cutting down to the basics, OPN is not a pay channel nor does it
> threaten users who do not contribute. So I see no point in moving away
> from it unless the situation actually warrents it (and needless to say,
> asking for donations twice a day does not warrent it)

How about abusing the network for raising personal funds?  What about
forcing channels off the network because of a topic that Lilo disagrees
with?  What about forcing servers off the network because their admins have
disagreed with Lilo?

> I hate to do stuff like this..but..
> I do know lilo in RL and I personally do not find him obnoxious :). But

I suspect I know him as well in RL as you.  He is likeable enough.  That
does not mean that he is the right person to be running an IRC network.

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