Re: [debian-knoppix] Knoppix as Debian installer (was: Why so much swap with knx-install?)
On January 29, 2003 10:46 pm, you wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 01:32:31AM -0500, Gilles Pelletier wrote:
> > "a better way to ask for user passwords" ? I don't really remember how I
> > was asked. Even if the script didn't ask, 1 line about "adduser" could be
> > added in the knx-hdinstall instructions . We're not making a distro for
> > the blind, are we?
>
> Well, my point is, all other configuration items use a popup dialog
> (Xdialog in X, ncurses dialog in textmode), but for entering the user
> password, you have to type this one in the text window or console you
> started knx-hdinstall in. There should really be a dialog window
> for asking the passwords
It certainly would be nicer and make the newbie feel more at home, but in no
way does it seem as important to me as making automount available. This
absense could make the newbie conclude that Linux development is way behind
Microsoft's and that "this thing does quite work right yet".
Maybe it would also be nice to include a little script on the desktop to
change the end of lines to CR-LF. This also makes the newbies think Linux has
a problem. I've got one here if you want it.
> automount. The supermount patch from Mandrake did not work with the
> current kernel, and autofs is more stable. Christian will probably let
> the script ask if the automounter should be started, and add the necessary
> desktop icons, in the next release of knx-hdinstall. Should not be a big
> deal.
This is such good news!!! I suppose I should say this about an OS whose mascot
is a penguin, but I feel this version of Knoppix is going to be a killer.
Bill Gates will sell even more shares :)
Maybe it would be better not to say on your site that the new version is
available on the servers until after the first rush is finished. Otherwise,
I'm afraid the servers will freeze dead.
> A big drawback of konqueror is that it blocks all devices that have been
> previously mounted, until all instances of konqueror are quit. You can't
> change a floppy disk if konqueror is running (well, you can, but it
> won't be recognized because the old floppy is still mounted).
I noticed this but it's not such a big problem if you don't use Konqueror as
your browser. Mine would rather be Galeon... but I suppose there no question
adding what's necessary to Mozilla (sigh). Anyway, downloading Galeon after
the disk install is not such a big deal. It's just that I feel sorry for
those guys working on Galeon having their good work ignored.
(I also hope that Mozilla news will soon permit to simply have watched threads
at the beginning of the list. Unless it has been done since Mozilla 0 ?)
> > If it's not possible to have supermount (or any other soft?) working
> > safely, a little education will be needed. I'm ready to write this kind
> > of basic info.
>
> Christians script is just changing Knoppix back into a standard Debian
> system.
Arch so!
> As said before, he may or may not add autofs support in the next
> releases. Feel free to change the script and send him patches.
I would love to but my aptitudes in shell scripting are nil and with nights
averaging 4 or 5 hours of very bad sleep, I just can't learn anything. Though
my cholesterol is low and my kidneys are OK, my blood pressure is around 190.
Sometimes I can hardly stand on my own two feet. So, despite all my good
will, you better forget about me writing scripts :(
> > Translations... yes. I used to be a translator, but if there's on thing I
> > wouldn't like to translate, it's instructions for Linux. Sometimes the
> > translation doesn't exist and when it does, people understand the english
> > word much better. I certainly wouldn't wait for that.
>
> Well, I have to wait. German children may not have learned english yet
> in school when they get the CD, and also some adults don't like to
> work with programs that are not in their native language.
I checked the files of what'z'it il8n (?) yesterday. There is quite a lot of
stuff there for a distro that's trying to save space. I hope you don't plan
on including all this. Why not just have a pop-up offer the different
languages: you click and get your language on the net.
> > OTOH, if anybody can explain how I can get a CA keyboard at the prompt
> > (notice: a CA keyboard), I'm a taker.
>
> Hmm... Can you tell me the correct locale and keyboard (console, X, KDE)
> names for ca, like shown in /etc/init.d/knoppix-autoconfig?
That's not the problem. I can set the keyboard to CA in KDE and everything is
perfect. The problem is when I work at the shell and here it is as I
described it in an earlier message:
----
The CA keyboard is avaiable in X under:
/etc/X11/xkb/symbols/ca
and is easily installed by KDE. Unfortunately, it's not under:
/usr/share/keymaps/i386/qwerty/
and cannot be loaded with loadkeys to be used at the shell. A search with
Google on "ca.kmap.gz" or "ca.map.gz" brought no result. THE FILE FOR LOADKEYS
SIMPLY DOESN'T EXIST. As "everybody uses Windows" (TM) and Microsoft has
relegated the prompt to antiquities, it seems the CSA didn't deem necessary
to produce one.
----
So I was wondering if some keyboard expert wouldn't know how to convert a ca
"map" to a ca.kmap.gz map. I'm afraid it might prove difficult.
> > You might not agree Klaus, but FOR SURE, you're the boss and you should
> > give some consideration at how Knoppix will be run.
>
> Not really. Knoppix contains primarily, but not exclusively, the stuff
> that I frequently use (sorry for sounding selfish here).
This selfishness dictated by the fact that everything must fit on a 700 MB CD
makes wonders! Otherwise, newbies are faced with too many software options,
it scares them and they want to return to the "unified" no choice Microsoft
system.
> I would not
> consider myself a "boss" here, rather a developer. Every recipient of
> the CD can taylor it to fit his/her needs and make an own version.
This goes without saying but I suppose they are not entitled to distribute
their CD under the Knoppix name. I for one would certainly not allow this.
> knx-hdinstall is a useful tool that Christian Perle wrote, and I include
> it on the CD in order to be able to do a quick GNU/Linux install on
> computers when I have to teach how to configure/maintain/administer a Linux
> system in courses. If you write a better tool or enhance knx-hdinstall,
> I will probably include youe installer on my version instead, if you
> as the author or co-author agree on the distribution terms (which is
> usually handles by the GPL). I don't think that Christian would be
> unhappy about this in any way.
(Maybe you can skip this passage. It is said in a shorter way later on. But
since I had written it, here goes...)
Klaus, my point is that for now, knx-hdinstall is the only installer for
Knoppix. Knoppixfr offers information that is not up to date as to how to
perform the installation. knoppix.net points to a site in New-Zealand, I
believe, which is not up to date.
I you don't want Knoppix users to end up like those of other distros looking
all over the net for information which is either outdated -- sometimes by
quite a few years -- , badly written or bordering on disinformation, you
should make links to the sites of people who are close to Knoppix and that
you know you can trust.
If you put a link on your site to Christian's site saying: Here's how to
install Knoppix to your HD, then the people won't be offered outdated
information. There is no way Christian can roam the net everyday to make sure
the info is up to date!
For now, the problem is that you offer links to site that offer information on
knx-hdinstall that is outdated and you don't provide a link to Chris' site.
Another problem is that, for now, the few lines of information to explain how
to use knx-hdinstall are not on Chris' site. As I said, I don't mind writing
them soon as I get my hands on the next version.
> > It's here to stay and will likely be more useful to Knoppix than its
> > Live-CD will ever will be to SuSE.
>
> The SuSE Live CD is, as I think, not intended as a replacement for the
> full installation, but rather as a Demo, so you can get used to the
> look&feel of a SuSE installation without having to do the full
> installation. It also shows some parts of the installation and
> configuration process, so you know what you get when you buy the
> package. It is surely a good and elaborated product for this purpose.
I agree. But as I explained in my previous message, a hard disk installer
would be a much better promotional tool for your CD-Live than SuSE's CD-Live
has been for its distro.
> Knoppix was not intended as an installable system, but for running off
> CD. And I would like to keep it that way.
"Unfortunately" as you explained earlier "Christians script is just changing
Knoppix back into a standard Debian system." :)
> There are a lot of
> well-designed installable distributions out there with very userfriendly
> installers, which come with a nicely written handbook, support and
> warranty.
And all the humdrum and the bullshit and the Stock Exchange options, and clubs
and you name it, and you finally get nothing more than what Knoppix presently
offers. All the time and money is spent trying to make more money and it just
doesn't work because Linux is GPL.
> You should buy those if you want to install GNU/Linux on your
> harddisk.
Despite Mandrake being lightyears away from what I believe a Linux distro
should be, I gave Mandrake 9 a try recently. Everytime I went on the net,
when I tried to get back on the net (dial-up modem, remember?) all the
applications seemed unware that I was reconnected. I suppose I was hacked, I
don't know. The 3 disks are still beside me, I can't use them.
Knoppix works. AND THERE IS NOT FUCKIN' HUMDRUM !
> I simply can't support the upcoming questions of beginners who
> just installed their first GNU/Linux system on HD on my own and now
> expect free (of charge) support for a free (freedom, not beer) software
> system.
Patrick Volkerding offers a distro. Does he provide support? Very little if
any, I believe.
The community can take care of that. As I said, I can write install
instructions and, though I'm not much into a state to write documentation
that requires utmost attention to detail, I will see what I can do
thereafter.
> Please understand the problem. I'm not planning to go into the
> commercial distribution business with online support and a callcenter.
> There are already many distributors, who do a very good job at this.
Sorry. IMHO, they don't do as much a good job as you. If they did, you
wouldn't have heard such an outcry because there was no HD installer. People
want the maintenance ease of Debian and Knoppix's easy installation. Whatever
you figure, there is no way around this.
> So, at least from my point of view, the installer on Knoppix is there
> for convenience and the target user of this program is more the
> experienced user, not beginners who want to install their very first
> GNU/Linux system, even that it may look seductively easy at the first
> look.
It is easy. Very easy. Let me write a few line of instruction and my
grand-mother will install it no problemo.
And I'm sure if you asked for a few dollars a year for your work on Knoppix --
once again I'm not talking about support! -- many people would be glad to
send it. Just like that. Because they love you... or rather your work :)
As I said, I don't have much use for a live CD, but if the next version of
Knoppix installs very well on the HD, I for one wouldn't mind sending you a
check of 25 euros for two years. That's not a lot, next to nothing. But if
everybody does that, it would be more than enough to pay for your efforts.
You could even share some money with Chris :)
If the next version of Knoppix installs very well on the HD... maybe I can
install Knoppix on some family and friends computers and send you some money.
> > You already make links to Knoppix sites that offer, or make links to
> > sites that offer, documentation that is outdated. Why don't you try to
> > keep badly needed information in a tight clean form? Otherwise, this will
> > degenerate.
>
> Because nowadays I unfortunately have to spend more time on answering mail
> that I can spend on developing, and simply can't check all the links.
Well, I'll check them for you if you want. Do you want me to send you back
your page on Knoppix when I'll have written the knx-hdinstall instructions
for Chris' site? I believe I can spend a minute on that. As bashed up as I
might be, I believe I can do that.
Here are two more items to complete my wish list :
Typing "knoppix floppyinstall" every time you want to boot Knoppix is a bore.
Why not made a menu with "f" being equivalent. Other letters for definitions,
keyboards, etc. Maybe somebody on the list can do that?
This is just for me and not very important:
If there is any way to use my ISA modem to "send fax" with CUPS, I'd like to
have the instructions. I will change to high speed within 2 or 3 months, but
I'd like to use my modem for faxing... if possible.
Regards!
Gilles
--
La Masse critique
What are non-lethal weapons?
http://pages.infinit.net/mcrit/meilleur.html
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