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Re: Little BIG problem with Backbone

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 21:10:44 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
<[🔎] 20040409191044.GF12143@freenet.de>:

> Hello Arnt, 
> Am 2004-04-09 18:23:03, schrieb Arnt Karlsen:
> >On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:03:06 +0200, Michelle wrote in message 
> ><[🔎] 20040409140305.GA12046@freenet.de>:
> >> They offer me only E3 with 34 MBit !!!
> >> And 34 MBit for 450.000 DH/month (41.000 Euro/month)
> >
> >..dude.  For that kinda money, I could hang you a few relay drones
> >over the Mediterranean.  
> In germany I have payed for a Redunant E3 at UUnet around 
> 10.000 Euro/month and then the traffic :-/ around 25.000 Euro/month. 
> Oh yes, In Germany You get the Acces realy cheap, 
> but you pay for the traffic !

..dude.  ;-)

> >> Only my Proxim Tsunami MP.11a (12 Access Points) support 216 MBit
> >or > effectiv 160 MBit and this only in one city !!!
> >
> >..huh?  These AP's are 54 Mbit, no?  I can buy 12 of these 
> Yes, but you can only use 4 Channels paralel of the 19.

..???  I can put one AP in each wing tip, one in the nose, and 
one in the tail, and one in the middle? That's 20 links per drone, 
bridge those, and you have 10 bridged links. Also possible to 
fence them away from each other and wire them together etc,
if you really wanna play games here. 

> >side by side doing your 160 to 216MBit range, this fits the 
> >30-50% bw performance I see everywhere else.
> The 54 MBit are only Theory !
> Practical you can get around 40 MBit for each channel.

..riiiiiiight, dream on. Say 20Mbps and I'll agree.  ;-)

> So if I install for example 4 Channels in Casablance I 
> have around 40% of all resources there !
> But, if I calculate with 5-6 E3-Links and 42.000 Euro per Link, 
> I will necer earn money with it !

..my experience with isp's, is, set up proxy servers and spam weed
servers, and phase in new customers so your old ones have time to 
stuff their disks full and quit DL'ing stuff at 100% pipe speeds.  ;-)
Here, my isp sells 400/200kbps and sees right now a 300kbps total 
for about 2200 ip connections.

> >> Now there are some enterprises in Marocco which had ask me, why not
> >> installing a second Internet-Network !!! 
> >> 
> >> Oh yes, ist is no problem !!!
> >> We need only a dual GigaBit Fiberoptic Sea-Cable from Espain to
> >> Marocco !
> >> 
> >> What a joke !
> >
> >..you sound like I can charge you more, for fancier drones?  ;-)
> ;-)
> I have friend in Marocco for more then 23 years, and I have 
> done there very much, NOW the are thinkin, I can do ALL !!! 
> Generaly right, but I need enough time for learning
> Curently I am preparing only a study about this project and 
> its possibility. I think realy it can be done...

..  ;-)

> >Fuel cells, hydrogen power, Warbird re-enactment game servers, 
> >steam video stream servers?  Realism suggests glider type looks, 
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This will kill my WaveLAN ;-)

..booo, I said "steam" like in vapor, not "steamy" like in raunchy.  ;-)

> >solar cells and batteries and electric loiter "cruise" power, and 
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^
> Regenerativ Energies are sibsidized (I was thinking to install the 
> WaveLAN Relays with SolarPower)

..ok, solar cells and batteries.  Hydrogen, makes good lift gas and 
fuel.  No crew to burn, no need for expensive heavy helium.  ;-)

> >> OK, crazy, but I have contacted CISCO for some routers ;-) and some
> >> other Manufacturs for Radio-Bridges (34 - 155 MBit and 1 GBit)
> >
> >..sizes, weights, and power etc requirements?
> It depends, because

...flashy plastics can be torn off, heavy metal can be milled flat 
and replaced with tin foil, cooling fins and fans, with piping for 
2 parts glycol 1 water, gasoline or jet fuel as coolant, radiators 
and pumps etc.

..power can be fed off solar and fuel cells or generators and fed
straight into AP's or onto pc main boards, so no need for big 
ass clunky wall plug power supplies. Etc.

..so, we return to sizes, weights, and power etc requirements.  ;-)

> 1)  If I have only a NetworkCenter (4 x OC-3) for my CyberCenter 
>     project, I need only RadioBridges which supports E1, E2 and 
>     E3 and OC-3
> 2)  If I support paralel to 1) commercial Users (End and ISP), I 
>     need a bigger Backbone like 2 x 1 GBit which mean, I need 
>     GBit RadioBridges maybe up to 1,8 GBit too. 
..you meant http://www.wirelessguys.com/  ;-)
They carry the above gear?

>     The price is realy heavy (around 27.000 US$ each ) and they 
>     support not more the 20km and you need many Briges...

..huh?  They do support line of sight?  60000ft ~ 20km, that's _up_. 
Assuming you are correct about their 20 km signal path loss range,
keep in mind that their 20 km is _along_ the surface, say across the 
sea, where the air is nice and thick.  Signal loss from your ground
station up to my relay drone, will be proportional to the air density
_along_ the signal path.

..now, pointing you ground station antennas up say at 11 degrees
elevation to point at my relay at say 20km altitude to match your sea
level signal loss, and then down on the other side at a similar angle, 
takes you how far?  ;-)

>     What I need is a study about installing wired ! 
>     Dont know the price for the special cable, the Repeaters, ...
> >..well, if you reel out a fiber spool or buy my relay drones, I guess
> > you'll still need at least one gateway isp, a full set of new isp
> >servers, staff, and ofcourse at least one ip range, to set up your 
> >new Maroccan isp.  
> I was thinking about minimum two independant and 100% redunant ISP's. 

..cool, 2 or more drones in the air, and several ground stations etc.

..or, are you setting up _several_ isp's, or are you setting up several 
_route_ isp's to serve the _one_ isp you have made the 26 boxes for?

> OK, I have already 26 Server prepared, but it is only for the 
> CyberCenter and can support up to 100.000 customers . 
> Bigger Backbone need bigger Servers...
> So 100 MBit FullDuplex will not enough.
> >..fiber you know, relay drones loiter at altitude with line of sight
> >to
> 		   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> You mean via Satelit ?

..close, like in "big model airplane carrying pc's" or AP's set up 
as bridges. The airframe would be a slow high flying wing with 
an autopilot, to make a flying robot relay drone.  ;-)

> I have read an Documentation that one Satelit Link can support 
> up to 50 MBit. Is this right ?

..dunno, but I can beat that satellite with a relay drone.  ;-)

..for anything past 99.9% 24/7 service, I say 3 drones minimum, one
airborne in service, one ready for takeoff, and "one in the work shop".
For every additional link serviced, add one airborne relay in service,
and depending on distances to, and between relay loiter points, 
service policy etc, consider launching flying spares.

..for your "redundant 2 link or more" argument, that can be anywhere
from one more relay drone in the air, to 4 fully independent drone link
base teams, "2 on each side of the sea", etc. You obviously want to
cross-link between all these, to isolate a single failure, rather than
take down a full lenght link.

..also, consider traditional wifi grids, high altitude relay drones can
join these, and span them, and span several of these grids, and 
can form back bone grids. A single point failure becomes less
problematic, as traffic can be re-routed until a new drone is up
and takes over the loiter point.

> But there are already concurence:  <http://www.directsky.net/>

..hardly.  ;-)
> >both ends, carrying bridges, so both ground startions point link
> >antennas to that spot half way across the sea, say at 60000ft, to 
> >stay out of the way of airliners etc.  Can even use wifi gear.
> OK, this is logicaly
> >..and over cities, access point server drones, with bandwidth
> >throttling, loitering at anywhere from 1000 to 20000ft? 
> >(Or 60000ft, to stay clear of the airliner etc traffic.)
> I can use the Proxim Tsunami MP.11a which sopports with the 
> Outdoor Router Software upgrade Traffic Shaping from 64 kBit 
> to some MBit (do not know exactly)

..yup, failing that, I have http://fmb.no/ipcop/setup-cbq-0.0.5.tar.bz2
which could use a web interface, and a wee linux box to run on to 
trottle the bridged links, I would prefer to have the airframe controls
separated from the payload bits, here, we rocket scientists are a bit
conservative.  ;-)

..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

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