RBLs for ISPs, was Re: Spamassasin over RBL, was Re: rblsmtpd -t?
> > I might also mention that it is not hard to get out of spamcop's
> > lists, even if you are listed. Unless a site continually gets spam
> > complaints, I think spamcop checks the RBL database ever 24hr... or
was
> > it every week... and removes stale/old entries. Try to get off some
> > of the OTHER RBLs... they make you beg and plead for your innocence,
> > and then most times they say "screw you spammer" and thats it.... you
> > are left being blocked until kingdom come.
>
> all of the RBLs i use have very simple methods for getting off. close
> the open relay and submit your server for retesting. done. no problem.
> if it's no longer an open relay then it will be de-listed.
Certainly not. I wish what you said were really the case.
>From the BLARS RBL (http://www.blars.org/errors/block.html):
-------------------------------
If you would like a site be added or removed from BlarsBL, you may hire
Blars at his normal consulting rates (currently $250/hour, 2 hour minimum,
$1000 deposit due in advance for non-established customers) to investigate
your evidence about the site. If it is found that the entry was a mistake,
no charge will be made and the entire deposit will be refunded. Send Blars
email from a non-listed account to verify current rates and arrange
payment.
-------------------------------
I don't think i need to make a comment about the above, do i?
>From SPEWS RBL (http://www.spews.org/faq.html):
-------------------------------
Q41: How does one contact SPEWS?
A41: One does not. SPEWS does not receive email - it's just an automated
system and website, SPEWS and other blocklist issues can be discussed in
the public forums mentioned above... Note that posting messages in these
newsgroups & lists will not have any effect on SPEWS listings
Q42: My IP address/range is being listed by SPEWS but I'm not a spammer
and I just signed up for this/these address(s). What can I do to be
removed from the list?
A42: SPEWS is just an automated system, if spam or spam involvement
(hosting spammers, selling spamware) from your IP address/range ceases, it
will drop out of the list in time. If you wish, you can discuss SPEWS and
blocklist related issues in the public forums mentioned above. A SPEWS
editor or developer should see the postings and may double check the
listing if you feel it is a mistake, putting the text "SPEWS:" in the
subject can help. Will this get you removed from a SPEWS listing? No, not
if there are problems with your host. In fact, the first step you need to
take is to complain to your host about the listing, in almost all cases
they are the only people who can get an address/range out of the SPEWS
list. Do note that your addresses may be listed due to a larger spam
related problem with your host, in that case they will not be removed
until the problem is fixed.
-------------------------------
Spews is *NOT* an automated system, as they claim. It is completely
manual, and going to the newsgroup they tell you to go to will confirm
this. Their entries also contain lots of outdated and old IP addresses.
Their database apparently was inhereted from some other service before
SPEWS.org started, so they inhereted lots of crap along with it.
They make it intentionally impossible to contact them so they become
completely unaccountable to anyone with no transparency in their process
whatsoever. They also list very large chunks of Asia, and have said racist
and derrogatory remarks about Asian peoples (go to the newsgroup and see).
These RBLs nearly act like Nazi SS, with a lot of unwitting admins blindly
using their block lists, not knowing how these people operate (the above
should shed some light on this).
For a complete RBL list, go to:
http://www.declude.com/junkmail/support/ip4r.htm
-------------------------------
SPAMCOP bl.spamcop.net127.0.0.2 Lists mail servers that have a very high
spam-to-legitimate-mail ratio. Seems like an excellent spam test; plans to
charge a reasonable fee soon.
-------------------------------
So can we really conclude that the RBLs you mention are more transparent
in process, accountable, or ANYTHING better than Spamcop? At least Spamcop
has a reasonable and clearly defined policy, transparent process, and
works with people to solve problems. Again, going to the Spamcop newsgroup
will prove more of the above. Spamcop is not the only transparent and
accountable RBL... there are others, but Spamcop is the one that seems to
the best of the lot, as the others only list open relays or such.
> the problem is that spamcop will forward you complaints from
> users based on nothing more than obviously forged Received or
> From/To/Reply-To/Message-ID/etc lines mentioning your IP addresses or
> domains - or your downstream customer's IP addresses or domains.
>
> spamcop will forward you crap that has no discernible relevance to you
> because their script saw something that it interpreted as referring to
> your IP addresses or domains. parsing received headers, for example, is
Then it is simple... Spamcop sends the admin a link. You click it, and it
gives you the ability to mark the complaints "Fixed it", or "Not our
fault", or similar options. So if it isn't your's, then mark it that way,
and when the system sees that a particular user keeps on reporting ISPs
incorrectly, they'll get booted.
> notoriously difficult because there is no standard for them and often
> pointless because they're forged, but spamcop does it....the trouble is
> that they do it badly. spamassassin does a pretty good job of
> recognising forged Received lines...so why can't spamcop?
I've found that it rarely marks things incorrectly, and when it does, the
Spamcop developers are readily available and usually helpful, and they
take your suggestions and usually implement them sooner or later, thus
improving Spamcop overall.
> > if you truely don't have spamming customers, and it will go away.
>
> it doesn't go away. i still get a handful of spamcop complaints every
> month, all of them for things like users being too stupid to unsub from
> a list they voluntarily subscribed to.
Well then, it isn't Spamcop that is stupid, it is the users that submit to
Spamcop. Similarly, the people that run the RBLs (as quoted above), can
act just as childishly and stupidly as the users that use them. Overall,
it comes down to the "people" side of things. And overall, just like
American democracy, I think in the long run it is better to listen to the
mass of the people, even when they are wrong sometimes, than to a few
dictators. And I think history has proven this point quite well.
> if you want to find better RBL services then the only way to do it is to
> actually compare each one against the others.
>
> i wrote a script to do that last year. it parses the mail logs and
> checks every smtp client IP address against a configurable number of RBL
> services. then it prints a table displaying the results.
What were your findings? Perhaps this will shed some light on the issue.
> the script is specific to postfix's log file format, but it wouldn't be
> too hard to convert it to read other log formats.
>
> spamcop is a service for idiot users who have no clue.
Somehow I feel that Spamcop may have stepped on your toes before, and
hence your extremely biased view against Spamcop which cloud over the
facts.
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