Re: removal of svenl from the project
On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 03:47:05PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> - I've seen him several times reject good or even optimum solutions
> to problems, upon which a fair number of other people agreed, just
> for them going against his own personal agenda; which is, oook,
> something not so uncommon in this project, albeit very very
> undesirable.
please provide backing for this diffamation, especially the accusation of not
having the best of debian in mind, but a personal agenda.
> Svenl was also involved. And this is something that, fortunately,
> one does not get to see everyday in the project, and something
> that has made me terribly sad whenever I've had to watch it.
I was in clear distress over this issue with jonas, and nobody considered it
worth intervening except a few. i appealed to the tech comittee and jonas
countered with outright lies and inexactitudes, and then i see aj commended
jonas for working hard to solve the problem, while he has done nothing at all
upto there.
> I haven't decided myself whether I think this procedure is too much
> for this particular case or not, and I'm aware that Svenl is not
> regarded as so nocive by many people who just see his good technical
> work and not him interact with others. But, if you want to listen, I
jonas is also known to be difficult to work with, and this nobody even thought
may have an influence on me. Of the 4 times in 8 years of my participation in
debian, that things degenerated, he was involved twice, and when i meet him in
real life and tried to solve the issue, i had the same problems i had on
irc/mail to even communicate with him, which is something totally different
from my experience with frans, who i also had words with in the past, and was
perfectly able to work with in extremadura, ask him please.
But then, i also fail to understand the fellow members of the debian-kernel
team, when i warn them about the yaird situation, and particularly jonas words
in erkelenz :
- i don't understand the issue enough to comment on it.
- i can't do anything without the advice of my upstream.
( especially given that his upstream has been MIA since december).
- please contact the tech committee if you disagree with how i handle this
bug.
- <long rant about why he should not fix the bug when i proposed to look
over it then, mentioning he was not sure it didn't break in some case he
was unable to mention, while it broke real systems>
> do think Svenl has done much harm, if not to the project, to the
> _PEOPLE_ involved in some parts of the project, which is something
And i think that much harm and hurt has been done to me, and that people like
andres, i counted as friend on this, and stood with when he had his
difficulties with the security team and dam and whatever, backstabbed me so.
He did indeed speak to me once, but it was a one-way patronizing kind of
thing, not something which could help the problem.
> that needs a solution. It's bad if your actions jeopardize a project's
> good name, or decrement its overall quality, but it's not bad but
Ah, and andres attacking the security team publicly doesn't fall in the same
category ?
> terrible when they go directly to contributors' feelings and amount of
> motivaion. Again, not sure still the proposed solution is the best.
And then, what do you think about people who stubbornly refuse to fix bugs
when users are seeing them ? Even though help is offered in all good faith ?
Do we care about our users or only our pride ?
> Also, just as a small anecdote: during the huge Vancouver thread, I
> mentally marked two people as having had a terribe and inexcusable
> behavior, and Svenl was one of them. While several people expressed
I agree with that, still many had the same strong feeling about the whole
vancouver process, and i can probably name at least 10 or more people who
agreed with me on that.
> their unhappiness or frustration very strongly, sometimes with nasty
> accusations or even insults, my mind could, while disagreeing to it,
> explain those reactions by putting them under a "caused by unbearable
> frustration" category; Svenl's behavior, otoh, surpassed the limits of
> my mind.
>
> Technical problems are hard, but we love them; social problems are
> harder, and we repeteadly ignore them until they explode.
And ignore people who, maybe not directly, ask for help, and fall of them like
a pack of wolves when they stumble, right ?
Sven Luther
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