On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 03:26:22PM +0200, Marek Habersack wrote: > On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 01:21:59PM +0100, Neil McGovern scribbled: > [snip] > > > > I think what Bas is meaning here is hat you cannot rely on the From > > > > field to work out who sent you a message. If some spammer decides to use > > > > my e-mail address as the From: recepient (and they do), I have not sent > > > > you a mail, but would receive a response from yourself. > > > > > > > challenge comes to you generated by somebody's mailer because it _thought_ > > > it was you who sent it, you can simply discard the challenge message > > > automatically, causing no harm - since it is certain it wasn't you who sent > > > the challenged message. > > > > The same reasoning can be used: > > If someone spams you, simply discard the message. > You miss one small issue - spam is generated to avoid catching it, the tmda > challenges are not created for that purpose. Again, the intent and purpose > are what matters, too. The world is not black and white. > However the effect of spam and TMDA is the same: unwanted messages which I have no control over, other than taking my own time and effort to filter against. > > > Therefore the argument that the TMDA challenges may be annoying can be > > > dealt with using filtering. And the filters necessary to discard TMDA > > > challenges should be much simpler and much more reliable than those > > > which deal with spam. I hope it's clear what I meant now :) > > > > This is, however, putting the onus on the receiver, not the sender, and > > is equivilent to me sending you 3000 Vi*gra messages, and expecting you > > to filter them. > Really? So there is not a single difference between spam and tmda > challenges? Correct, if I did not try and contact teh e-mail address behind the TDMA system. > So your claim is that every message you do not want to receive is > spam, as I understand. Bzzt. It's not a case of wanting to receive, it's the unsolicited part. I didn't ask to receive it. > Well, then I would consider 70% of mails on the debian lists spam, > since I don't care about various flames that go on on the > lists, or "problems" with binary software licenses and other equally > irrelevant issues. And the fact that I subscribed to the debian lists does > not mean I _want_ to receive the messages listed above, just the same as the > fact I have an email address doesn't mean I want to get spam. Both having > the email address and being subscribed to a mailing list is voluntary, and > neither means anybody's consent to receive unsolicited mail. So if we take > your definition of spam (as seems to be apparent from your assesment that > tmda challenges equal v*agra spam) then most of the mail traffic IS spam. Ok, unsubscribe. However, I didn't subscribe to your TDMA filter to say 'you can send me TDMA challenges' or even try and contact an address behind such a filter. > So, is the world still black and white? > You say that I put the onus on the receiver. You're right to some extent. > But, call me naive, I believe in people (sometimes) helping each other when > the intent is clear and not harmful for anybody. By that token, I would > expect that you (or anyone else) who feels offended by the tmda challenges > comes up and says "hey, dude, are the challenges necessary? Is there > anything you can do so that I don't receive them?". Then the party > generating the challenge would come back saying "sure, here is a set of > procmail/maildrop/spamassassin/whatever filters that will make them > disappear from your mailbox. Thanks". Instead, what we get is "Hey dude! Get > the fuck lost with your spam! I don't care about your problems, get away, > I've got my problems you prick! You're a spamming asshole, loser!" or > something in that spirit. Now, that's a true cooperation spirit. This is a great theory. But the problem is just that: it's a theory. "hey dude, is sending me mail about me getting a Degree for a mere $600 necessary? Is there anything you can do to stop me getting them?" I somehow doubt the reply will be "Sure: here's some filters for you". If I get mail I didn't ask for and is in no way related to what I do, it's spam. --->. Regards, Neil -- A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3
Attachment:
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature