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Re: Spam in the lists out of control

On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 03:26:22PM +0200, Marek Habersack wrote:
> On Wed, May 12, 2004 at 01:21:59PM +0100, Neil McGovern scribbled:
> [snip]
> > > > I think what Bas is meaning here is hat you cannot rely on the From
> > > > field to work out who sent you a message. If some spammer decides to use
> > > > my e-mail address as the From: recepient (and they do), I have not sent
> > > > you a mail, but would receive a response from yourself.
> > > > 
> > > challenge comes to you generated by somebody's mailer because it _thought_
> > > it was you who sent it, you can simply discard the challenge message
> > > automatically, causing no harm - since it is certain it wasn't you who sent
> > > the challenged message. 
> > 
> > The same reasoning can be used:
> > If someone spams you, simply discard the message.
> You miss one small issue - spam is generated to avoid catching it, the tmda
> challenges are not created for that purpose. Again, the intent and purpose
> are what matters, too. The world is not black and white.

However the effect of spam and TMDA is the same: unwanted messages which
I have no control over, other than taking my own time and effort to
filter against.

> > > Therefore the argument that the TMDA challenges may be annoying can be
> > > dealt with using filtering. And the filters necessary to discard TMDA
> > > challenges should be much simpler and much more reliable than those
> > > which deal with spam. I hope it's clear what I meant now :)
> > 
> > This is, however, putting the onus on the receiver, not the sender, and
> > is equivilent to me sending you 3000 Vi*gra messages, and expecting you
> > to filter them.
> Really? So there is not a single difference between spam and tmda
> challenges? 

Correct, if I did not try and contact teh e-mail address behind the TDMA

> So your claim is that every message you do not want to receive is
> spam, as I understand. 

Bzzt. It's not a case of wanting to receive, it's the unsolicited part.
I didn't ask to receive it.

> Well, then I would consider 70% of mails on the debian lists spam,
> since I don't care about various flames that go on on the
> lists, or "problems" with binary software licenses and other equally
> irrelevant issues. And the fact that I subscribed to the debian lists does
> not mean I _want_ to receive the messages listed above, just the same as the
> fact I have an email address doesn't mean I want to get spam. Both having
> the email address and being subscribed to a mailing list is voluntary, and
> neither means anybody's consent to receive unsolicited mail. So if we take
> your definition of spam (as seems to be apparent from your assesment that
> tmda challenges equal v*agra spam) then most of the mail traffic IS spam.

Ok, unsubscribe. However, I didn't subscribe to your TDMA filter to say
'you can send me TDMA challenges' or even try and contact an address
behind such a filter.

> So, is the world still black and white? 
> You say that I put the onus on the receiver. You're right to some extent.
> But, call me naive, I believe in people (sometimes) helping each other when
> the intent is clear and not harmful for anybody. By that token, I would
> expect that you (or anyone else) who feels offended by the tmda challenges
> comes up and says "hey, dude, are the challenges necessary? Is there
> anything you can do so that I don't receive them?". Then the party
> generating the challenge would come back saying "sure, here is a set of
> procmail/maildrop/spamassassin/whatever filters that will make them
> disappear from your mailbox. Thanks". Instead, what we get is "Hey dude! Get
> the fuck lost with your spam! I don't care about your problems, get away,
> I've got my problems you prick! You're a spamming asshole, loser!" or
> something in that spirit. Now, that's a true cooperation spirit.

This is a great theory. But the problem is just that: it's a theory.
"hey dude, is sending me mail about me getting a Degree for a mere $600
necessary? Is there anything you can do to stop me getting them?"
I somehow doubt the reply will be "Sure: here's some filters for you".

If I get mail I didn't ask for and is in no way related to what I do,
it's spam. --->.

A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q. Why is top posting bad?
gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3

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