On 26-Feb-2003, Joshua Kwan wrote: > On Thu, Feb 27, 2003 at 12:12:40AM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote: > > Improving the installer helps administrators, but to benefit *users*, > > we should also be working on improving the social infrastructure so > > they don't *have* to know the difference between 75dpi and 100dpi > > fonts. 100 dpi fonts hold more data, right? (Therefore, higher quality glyphs) Why doesnt someone mandate that either: a) all packages in debian have to support different DPIs correctly. (with gtk, this would involve switching default sizes from points, and changing them to a similiar sized pixel setting.) b) remove 75dpi fonts, and patch all the major glyph generators to render 100dpi glyphs, and bilinearly shrink them to 75dpi when an application asks for it. c) list 75dpi fonts before 100dpi fonts in all the fonts conf files. > Very true. But whatever changes to Debian's installation make that > possible must make sure that those who still care, *can* care :) Hear hear! > A lot of Debian users are refugees from other distrbutions who felt that > these distributions held their hand too much. You musn't destroy that > key reason. Exactly. I would rather have no choice automatically made, then having to set an option to something else. > That brings us back to the previous question[1]: who should Debian > really target? If you watch #debian, you typically see the end users who > can't or don't want to learn how to harness the system to work for them. > These are oftentimes the same kind of refugees, who discovered with a > shock that they got a lot less hand holding than they bargained for with > Debian. Debian should target people like me and you, and anyone else that atleast has a partial clue. You should need to know whats in your machine, and how basic stuff works. > When they ask for help, they often are told to RTFM to fix the problem > (not that it isn't a solution) and basically read up all the manpages > that a systems administrator would read, in order to fix his or her > problem. But all they want to do is enjoy a truly free OS and probably > do whatever it is they used to do with whatever distribution they used > previously, or perhaps whatever non-free OS they used previously :). No > hassles. Is it too much to ask? Yes, unless mandrake and redhat want to pitch in their HandHolding 2000 (TM) software under the agreement that Debian has the right to remove some of the features, and redhat and mandrake cant bitch if we do, then _maybe_ we could pull it off. Otherwise, we dont have the time, money, or want to make Debian userfriendly more than it is now. > If they're told rudely to scurry back to that other OS, that's not > fixing the problem. Measly stuff like detecting X, setting up a generic > non-abusable mail system without the user having to know what 'relay > domains' are, shouldn't have to be an issue during setup. My friend in > Massachusetts is currently having lots of 'fun' watching X tank and die > because setting it up with exactly the right settings is a nightmare for > him. (I've advised discover to him, but I believe he has gone to sleep) Maybe we need a "clueless mode" and a "clueful mode" based on how much the user knows? (Ie, microsoft and rpm-based distro refugees use clueless mode, bsd and debian users use clueful mode.) Clueful mode is what we are doing right now. > Anyway, I believe a user-friendly initial setup is very effective. The > beautiful thing is that Debian's underlying framework makes it very easy > for people who grow tired of this initial setup to start experimenting > with more 'daring' stuff (relative to how easy it's been before for > thm.) Yeah, but I belive Debian still might need more options in some packages to diable Debian from altering handwritten conf files. > Of course, I recognize that a lot of this is due to be fixed in the new > debian-installer. But I hope this gives the d-i team a slightly clearer > view of what end users are experiencing with Debian as of woody. Yeah, I heard this new installer is the bomb... but Im not exactly sure if I would be a great person to judge this. Debian makes sense to me. Redhat/Mandrake dont. Windows especially doesnt. -- Patrick "Diablo-D3" McFarland || unknown@panax.com "Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989
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