Re: ae's vi attempt on boot disks stomps on real vi symlink
On May 11, Ryan Smith-Roberts wrote
>
> > So you can install a fairly complex system as painlessly as
> > possible. Though the Debian dpkg system is by far the best package
>
> Having vi does not fall under 'as painlessly as possible'??
>
> > management system I have seen, it _is_ quite complex, and it takes a
> > number of subsystems to be at least minimally functional to enable
> > the installation to continue. Unfortunately, peoples favorite editors
> > would bloat the installation disks a lot.
>
> vi is not just some people's favorite editor. It is the (second) most
> common Unix editor (ed beats it[1]). The _most_ common visual Unix
> editor.
>
> Hmm, let's take a poll of some non-Debian systems which are in-house here
> (none of which were installed by me):
>
> Solaris- yup, vi's there. How about Emacs? Nope. ae? Nope.
> SunOS- there it is. Emacs? What's that? ae? Kidding, right?
> FreeBSD- why, there it is. Emacs? On one system, but installed by the
> admin in /usr/local. ae? No.
> Hacked-together elderly Linux box once called Slackware- you bet, vi's
> there. Emacs doesn't work (it's in /usr/local here too) and there's
> no ae.
>
> Some systems we don't have (now) but I have experience with:
> Hpux- yes
> SCO- yes
> OSF/1- yes
> Ultrix- yes
> Irix- yes
>
> Would you agree that vi deserves a little higher standing than just some
> people's favorite editor?
>
> Also, you would rather have 'factor' and 'tic' and 'infocmp' and 'od' and
> 'pr' and a bunch of /usr/doc READMEs and Changelogs and a whole HORDE of
> manpages (when man-db isn't even on the install disks) than vi?
>
> The install disks are horribly bloated as they are. One more package that
> makes installs easier for say a third of the people who do Debian installs
> is hardly going to be noticed. Especially given that at the current size
> of the install disks nvi can be included without adding another disk to
> the install set. elvis-minimal would be lost in the noise.
>
> > However, my wife (the biologist) also reminds me that the
> > species which stopped adapting (and learning) have quite often gone
> > extinct.
>
> I would rather adapt to and learn about things which are interesting and
> have use to me beyond the Debian install phase. Such as vi. Such as
> innd. Such as gated. Such as sendmail. Such as Ciscos. Such as perl.
> There is a long, long list of things I'd rather be doing than peering at
> the upper half of ae's interface trying to ferret out which key to push to
> write and exit (which I did barely know up until vi started running
> ae-vi[2] instead of ae. Also, where's the Emacs ae emulation mode? axe
> emulation? How about nedit emulation?).
>
> > Ryan> I thought Debian was supposed to make your life easier?
> >
> > For the largest number of people. I think we may have far many
> > more ``customers'' who would prefer ae, or at least not object to the
> > absence of vi/emace/XEmacs/axe/nedit et al.
>
> If it costs 60k or thereabouts, and cuts interactive install time by
> two-thirds for say 30% of the people who install Debian, isn't it worth
> it? I would guess that's a much bigger payoff than most of the stuff
> in the base system, such as 'top'.
>
Could we just stop this stupid discussion ?
I never had to use ae during my several installations of Debian
because after installing the base system dselect was started and I
installed whatever I wanted. The only point where I possibly would
need a editor during the initial installation is to edit the
ppp-related files for dpkg-ftp. If you are installing from CDROM,
mounted filesystems, floppies, etc. you won't need any editor to start
installation. So what's the point in fighting over a editor on the
install disks :-/
I had to use ae when I used the rescue disk as just that: to rescue a
system. I doubt there is space on the rescue disk for vi. If you think
you will be able to provide a rescue disk with generic kernel, root
image, vi and everything else what one needs for rescuing a system you
are welcome to provide a new Debian package and participate in the
project.
Greetings,
Christian
--
Christian Meder, email: christian.meder@utoronto.ca
What's the railroad to me ?
I never go to see
Where it ends.
It fills a few hollows,
And makes banks for the swallows,
It sets the sand a-blowing,
And the blackberries a-growing.
(Henry David Thoreau)
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