Re: Another about SID in ftp.fsn.hu/pub/CDROM-Images/debian-unofficial/sid/jigdo/
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004, Attila Nagy wrote:
> Santiago Vila wrote:
> > There are a lot of people who use sid without those CDs, so your claim
> > that without them we would have no users using sid and nobody would
> > report bugs in sid is completely unfounded (not to say ridiculous).
> You are completely right. It's just another way which can help users to use
> Debian. But if you say users should not distribute Debian in a given form, in
> my reading you say they should not use it.
>
> Why is distributing a CD worse than distributing it on
> FTP/HTTP/whatever? Because some first time wannabe-linux-hacker
> thinks that he knows everything and doesn't take the time to read
> the Debian web pages about the whole release process?
That's one of the reasons, yes.
Another reason, as I've already said, is that a brown paper bag bug on
a package that you got by FTP/HTTP will probably be fixed by the same
FTP/HTTP in less than ten days. Using a CD, it will never be fixed
unless somebody downloads yet another CD image.
Also, a CD gives the feeling of a "finished product", which is far
from reality for a sid CD.
> [...]
> This is the only way I can do that, so I build the CDs. If somebody else can
> benefit from them, I am happy.
The main benefit comes from the fact that woody has very old software
and sarge is almost finished and it's very stable. The additional
benefit that distributing sid CDs has over distributing only sarge
images is marginal. The mere fact that people download sid CDs does
not necessarily mean people benefit from them. The CDs might contain
packages with very serious bugs, and people might well throw the CD to
the bin immediately. You think you are helping by making the CDs available.
I not only think they don't help very much, I think sid CDs are
harmless for the project.
> Installing/using SID can make pretty much harm anyways, it does not depend on
> those images. Why do you publish it at all?
The packages need to be tested. Being them in unstable allow for
people to test them. As you say, the "first time wannabe-linux-hacker
that thinks that he knows everything" is not the kind of Debian user
who help us with the testing. Instead, very often he's the kind of user who
complain to us about bugs which are already fixed, because by the time
he burns the CD, lots of important bugs in unstable have been fixed.
> [...]
> > To me, the ten days delay which happens for packages in unstable to
> > enter testing is exactly the kind of difference which makes testing CDs
> > to be generally acceptable and unstable CDs generally not acceptable.
> OK. What should I say?
>
> There were nearly 5000 SID and more than 60000 Sarge image downloads
> last week from ftp.fsn.hu. I think it helps Debian to spread. If the
> packages in SID are low quality then blame the developers, not the
> people who spend money and time to distribute them. :)
Oh, yes, it's very easy to say "blame the developers" when you are not
the one who has to receive the bugs.
If you spend money and time to distribute them, that's another reason
why I think you should consider stopping the distribution of sid CDs.
Your figures speak by themselves: Only 7.7% of people who download CD
images download a sid image, so by stopping the distribution of sid CDs,
things will not be very different from now.
I have a question for you: Why do you think the Debian FAQ says
"please do not distribute CDs of unreleased software", and why
do you think such thing does not apply to you?
This is of course not a matter of licensing, as the packages are all
free software, but a matter of respect for a work which is not finished.
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