On Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 07:25:26AM +0100, Christian Perrier wrote: > > I don't think a two-stage selection is all that necessary. That seems > > like added complexity for little benefit; the list is only made a little > > longer by including all locales in a single list, and the fewer > > questions the better. > Sure, but do we really need to have this huge list of locales, some of > which being quite confidential (de_BE or de_NL, for > instance....german speaking parts of Belgium or Netherlands are indeed > really small....no offense intended, but how mmuch people will really > choose this?). On the other hand, this combination should be made > possible, so this is why I proposed to go to a 2 stage question. Is this a list of languages in which to run the installer, or a list of all available locales? Do we really have different d-i translations for de_BE vs. de_NL? My "ideal" flow for install-time language configuration would be: * High (critical?) priority: prompt for language to use from installation. This is a relatively short list, since many locales can share an installer localization. * High (critical?) priority: prompt for keyboard config, with a reasonable default given the chosen language. * Medium priority: the locales package prompts for a list of locales to generate, with a default from d-i set to include those locales related to the chosen language (plus en_US.UTF-8?). * High priority: if and when there is good support for setting a default system locale, prompt for this, with a default based on the intersection of the d-i language config and the list of configured locales. This seems to require relatively minor changes to d-i to achieve. > > Of course, the counterargument is that we can't expect the debconf > > question itself to be usefully localized; so the user may understand > > their language name, but without the complete sentence there may be > > greater confusion as to the application of the language. Does it apply > > to the installer only? To the default system locale once installed? To > > the keyboard? Then again, I'm not sure the answers to these questions > > are all that obvious even /with/ the current sentence. :) > I was thinking about this, yes....and there's probably not a complete > answer to this question. > If the prompt is really simple, I think that every potential user is > able to understand it. Unfortunately, at this time, one has to at > least understand basic english for using a Unix system. Fortunately, Unix *desktop* systems now bear little resemblance to traditional Unix systems. ;) > About the *real* target of the language selection, your question > raises an important topic. > The chosen language is in fact the locale the installer runs with. In > the last steps of the installation process, the locales package in > installed and then asks about locales to be used. So the question > should maybe be simplified to "Language for installation". Ok. This had been my understanding. It still leaves some question of whether the debconf choices adequately communicate this to the user in his own language. > > > -Sort other languages. Below are some proposals: > > > Does somebody have comments on this? > > I believe that the most useful sort order for a user *trying to find his > > language in the list* is alphabetically by locale code, with locale > > codes listed explicitly in front of the translation. Most ISO locale > > codes are derived from the language's own name for itself, so assuming > > at least basic familiarity with Latin sort order, this would seem to be > > the biggest UI win for the most users. > *This* is a great idea : > C : Choose this to proceed in international English > de_DE : Dies auswählen um auf Deutsch fortzufahen (Deutschland) > fr_FR : Choisissez ceci pour continuer en français (France) > und so weiter.... > If noone objects, I'll make the bug report with the appropriate patch. Obviously no objections here. > My own opinion is that we should list first the languages Debian is > really translated into. > That means, besides international English (no order....this is how > they come to my mind): > -German > -Brazilian portuguese > -Japanese > -Dutch > -Swedish > -Russian > -Spanish > -French > I may forget some of these (italian, hungarian, polish, chinese? > Others?). Again, no offense intended, this is from memory..:) ISTR Czech showing up on the list of most complete d-i translations, but I don't know how it rates for overall Debian translation. Again, I would limit this top language list to less than half a standard screen (24 lines, minus margins, so 10 or less) so that there's room to see that the list continues in alphabetical order. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer
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