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Re: english/devel/website/working: missing closing parenthesis in cdvendors example

Hi there!

On Thu, 01 Sep 2011 18:27:10 +0200, David Prévot wrote:
> [ Sorry in advance for the long answer for such a tiny remark ]

I should say that I am actually glad for the very explicative answer,
thank you!

> Le 01/09/2011 10:33, Luca Capello a écrit :
>> While reading through the website documentation, I found that we are
>> missing a closing parenthesis at the end of the last paragraph of
>>   Separation of text from data
>>   "What are these foo.def and foo.data files?"
> Well, I intend to disagree on this point, maybe should we bring this
> issue in the debian-l10n-english mailing list for more comment?

I guess so, if there is no general policy defined by the Webmaster team,
see below.

> For other reader, the text spotted by Luca is:
> 	(An updated translation for free! :-)
> In my point of view, the text “An updated translation for free!” is
> between parenthesis and someone added some extra and unneeded
> characters, “ :-”, to show a “friendly face” at the end of the sentence,
> resulting is a final “:-)”.

I am sorry, but you are wrong.  That text was added *with* the emoticon
since the beginning or, better, Josip added the opening parenthesis and
the emoticon when moving stuff from translation_hints.wml to


> Adding an extra closing parenthesis would make it clear that the “:-)”
> is an actual word, and on this point I disagree.

Just to be sure we are talking about the same problem: IMHO what is
matter is that ":-)" (as any other emoticon) does constitute a single
"word", i.e. you should not consider it as three separata characters.  I
think we agreee on this point, the fact that it is a real word or not is
another problem.

FTR, I would not use the term "word" for an emoticon, but "ideogram"
instead, the whole being a mess because you can have both graphical and
textual representations.

> Maybe should we simply remove it (I don't understand what is the extra
> information that this friendly face add): if the sentence is funny, no
> need to add extra characters, pretending that the reader is dummy, to
> tell him: “now, you've got the right to smile”, and if the sentence is
> not funny, it should be change to match the intend to be funny, or
> simply be kept as it is without the friendly face, no need to pretend
> we are some bunch of friendly people that are always laughing when we
> are coding or translating (well, I recently met other Debian people,
> and we all know that's true, but no need to state it publicly).

As I wrote before, I think there should be a policy about emoticons,
otherwise this discussion will happen again and again.  FWIW, I agree
with you, i.e. I do not see the point in having emoticons on *official*
pages, which should stay as neutral as possible.

>> Before going on with the subject at matter here, there are three
>> independent problems:
>> 1) some translations contains extra empty lines, which is a cosmetic
>>    issue, but still causes automatic tool to be adjusted for nothing
>>    (the value of the -B option for grep)
> There are many contributors, and indeed many different “styles”. For
> example, I like to separate each sentence by an extra empty lines, it
> makes easier to read the diff if a sentence is later changed…

Perfectly fine, but this IMHO makes more difficult to spot real
differences between the translations, especially when used in
conjunction with automatic tools.  If this is something proper to me,
then just forget about it.

>> 2) the Swedish translation uses a different style, i.e. it places the
>>    closing </p> on a newline, again bad for automatic tool (you can not
>>    grep for "! :-)</p>", which means I do not see any other way I could
>>    use smart_change.pl...)
> So the Swedish translator is the only one who actually read the whole
> doc and adopt the rules [0], shame on the others!
> 	0 : http://www.debian.org/devel/website/htmlediting#general

Ops, I have not reached that point yet.

>> 3) the Spanish translation does not follow the others, given it misses
>>    the opening parenthesis.  This is the biggest problem, because adding
>>    a closing parenthesis without the opening one generates a new error.
>>    Should that be fixed in the same run?  I would say no.
> Looking at all the friendly faces on this page, you can also remark that
> other translators takes some liberty on that matter :
> $ grep -c :-\) */devel/website/working.wml
> danish/devel/website/working.wml:3
> english/devel/website/working.wml:2
> french/devel/website/working.wml:1
> […]
> Not sure if you can state that Danish translation is funnier or that
> French is sadder… More seriously, Kåre, you may wish to verify that
> there is no extra sentence or paragraph in the Danish translation, I on
> the other hand confirm that the missing friendly face in the French
> translation is fine.

I was aware of both problems (more/less emoticons in some translation
and one more sentence/paragraph in the Danish translation), but then I
forgot to include it in the email.

>> Going back to the point in question, I would add an extra space after
>> the emoticon, though.
> If we really want to edit this page for this “issue”, I would prefer to
> simply remove them.

Fully ACK.

>> Nevertheless, despite the fact that I have CVS
>> commit rights, here the patch:
> Ditto, patch attached. Thanks for your close look, I took extra care of
> the various translations too.

Well, it seemed easier to check all the translations, given their low
number for that page (only 8).

>> BTW, I found that using *Vendors.CD* as an example for the separation of
>>      text from data is a bit unfortunate, given that there is no .data
>>      file at all, and the subtitle says "What are these foo.def and
>>      foo.data files?"...
> It states that name doesn't matter, but if it makes it more difficult to
> understand because of that, maybe someone could volunteer to rephrase
> those using, e.g., english/events/ and the talks.wml, talks.data and
> talks.defs files…

I understand it in both cases, but it seemed weird to me, because the
example does not reflect the words used to explain the idea.  I will
come back with a patch for the talks stuff ;-)

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

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