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Re: Core KDE member about HIG^W female contributors

On 15 May 2005, C.M. Connelly wrote:
>"HR" == Herman Robak <herman@skolelinux.no> 


>    HR> How do you motivate the guys to behave, and how do you
>    HR> avoid making them hostile?
>Frankly, it's not up to women to ``motivate the guys to behave'',
>it's up to the guys to figure out that their behavior is
>inappropriate and deal with it.  Their hostility is their problem,
>right up to the point that it results in negative actions
>affecting someone else.

As I understand what Herman wrote, he isn't arguing that guys aren't
responsible for their behavior.  Of course they are.  That isn't the

The issue he's trying to raise is how women can best affect guys'
behavior in order to achieve the results they want.  It isn't about
who's right or wrong; it's about convincing people to behave the way you
want them to.

Claire, you say that it's not up to us, that it's up to the offenders
to figure out that they're inappropriate.  That kind of attitude is
fine if all you want is to be right (and for them to be wrong), but it's
not going to cause guys to change.  By and large, they are simply not
going to figure it out.  If they were going to, it would have happened
already.  (They've had a few thousand years to work it out on their own.
I'm not holding my breath.)

As you say, "Their hostility is their problem, right up to the point
that it results in negative actions affecting someone else."  At that
point, it becomes our problem.  What are we going to about it?  When Joe
Mysogynist makes an inappropriate comment, how can we help him to
understand why it's not okay and to motivate him to improve his behavior
in the future?

We really have to get away from thinking about right and wrong.  We can
be right until the cows come home, but we're still going to have to deal
with sexist attitudes.  The comments will only stop when we convert the
men (and women!) who are perpetuating those attitudes.

Do I know how to do this?  Of course not.  I don't even think there's
one right answer.  I just wanted to point out that I think Herman's
getting attacked for the wrong thing.

Laura, stepping off the soap box
ASCII silly question, get a silly ANSI.

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