[cross-post to -project dropped] Hi Ian, Ian Jackson <ijackson@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes: > Thanks to Steve for his perceptive and well-reasoned article. > > Steve Langasek writes ("Legitimate exercise of our constitutional decision-making processes [Was, Re: Tentative summary of the amendments]"): >> There are also a lot of Debian users who are afraid of what the future holds >> for an OS that they love very much; and they deserve to have that cloud of >> fear removed from over their heads, to be given closure, even if that >> closure brings the certainty that they will part ways with Debian rather >> than being reconciled to it. > > There is a big point I wanted to make apropos, roughly, of this: > > If this vote goes against the users and derivatives who don't want to > use systemd, those people will have nowhere to go. I thought you said that your GR (i.e. option 1) was effectively a NOP for Jessie (that's certainly how I read the text of your clause 4) in which case the people that would prefer to avoid systemd have several years (until the end of jessie-LTS) to come up with alternatives that they prefer, so there is absolutely no reason to panic about it now. If we were to adopt Option 1, then we'll be dragging sysvinit behind us like a ball and chain long past the last person who clung to it notices that there are better alternatives available -- which presumably will come to pass eventually (or more likely happened some time ago, but the inertia in Debian is blinding us to that fact). The network effect that Steve tried to conjure for systemd will actually come into effect, but for sysvinit, because the few people that might have a good reason to depend on systemd-as-init will be forced to cobble something together for sysvinit to act as a shield against the newly created RC missiles. I cannot see them being very motivated to maintain that sysvinit-shield though, so we should expect those to rot over time. Also, they'll be doing all that under duress, so will likely be irritable when anyone asks them to support a third init, whereas without this meddling in the natural order they'd probably be quite interested to adopt an emerging competitor to systemd that supports their needs. The result being that we'll be tied to sysvinit way beyond it's usefulness. Of course, for the likes of Gnome, voting for Option 1 really will have an immediate effect, which will be to completely demotivate our Gnome maintainers, since this would be a vote against them. I think Debian without Gnome would be a diminished thing, and that seems like a reasonably likely outcome of Option 1 passing. That's why I'll be voting for Charles' amendment (Option 4). The mechanisms we already have will continue to serve us to resolve any real instances of the breakage you're worried about. If there are enough people that care, Gnome will be made to run without systemd. If not, not, and in that case very few people will care. If nobody cares to do the work, there is no need for it to be done. Option 1 seems like a Luddite reaction to me, which is of course very tempting to the grey-bearded unix user in me, but I'd suggest that that is just a symptom of old age, so the temptation should be resisted IMO. If we cannot embrace innovation we should get out of the way of the youngsters, whose brains are yet to fossilise, and see what wonders they can surprise us with. It may not be as awful as you imagine. Cheers, Phil. P.S. for those of you busily making assumptions about what my motives are: I'm an xmonad user, have only recently installed systemd on my laptop (with some minor issues that will get reported as bugs once I track them down), and rarely manage to install Gnome to my satisfaction (because I'm generally trying with old hardware), so on the whole this doesn't affect me greatly either way (apart from the vast waste of time involved in following the interminable arguments). -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/ http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg, GERMANY
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