Re: *nix

[David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk>]

On Mon 17 Feb 2020 at 17:06:01 (-0800), Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2020-02-17 at 06:00:01, David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Sun 16 Feb 2020 at 13:03:05 (-0800), Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 21:10:01 +0100 Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Du, 16 feb 20, 09:36:16, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >>>> On Sun, 16 Feb 2020 14:20:01 +0100 Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Just use whatever works for you.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you can.  I really resent the increasing amount of coercion
> >>>> toward using GUIs (no keyboard equivalents for menus, etc.) that
> >>>> I'm seeing in modern software.
> >>>
> >>> Coercion is a strong word. It seems to me it's rather a form of
> >>> demand and supply.
> >>
> >> They're demanding you use what they supply.
> >
> > I can understand that on systems where you don't have a choice;
> > for example, Hulu on Roku, where they introduced a new interface
> > to much disapproval. Many TV interfaces now look as though they
> > were designed for mobile phones, and I suspect they are.
> >
> > But with Debian, you have choices. I prefer a GUI for browsing,
> > and obviously for graphics processing, but one or two other
> > programs bridge the gap, like gnumeric and xpdf, where I almost
> > entirely use the keyboard, but a few operations are easier with
> > a mouse, like copying text out of xpdf, or adjusting column widths
> > in gnumeric, for example.
> >
> > And I can't think of any software that has been deliberately
> > withdrawn because of a GUI replacement.
> 
> Not withdrawn, no.  But newer software tends to neglect the keyboard
> in favour of pointy-clicky stuff.  Note that I'm not just talking
> about Linux, which really isn't that bad.  On other OSes, however,
> the situation is much worse.

Sorry, I can't speak for other OSes. 

> >>> With touchscreen technology becoming the standard even for laptops
> >>> and desktop monitors the demand for keyboard oriented interaction
> >>> decreases so the developers must create interfaces that are better
> >>> suited for tap / swipe.
> >>
> >> Fine.  But the keyboard should still be an option.  All I'm asking
> >> is that I be allowed to choose.  I'm not insisting that everyone
> >> use a keyboard, and likewise people should not insist that I
> >> _not_ use a keyboard.
> >
> > Perhaps you're not choosing your software with sufficient discernment.
> > I gravitate towards applications that have keyboard shortcuts/functions
> > and allow you to define more of them.
> >
> > Where that's not straightforward, then I try to coerce some other
> > application to do the job. So, for example, I define keys in my
> > window manager, fvwm, to do such things as control audio levels
> > (amixer), take screenshots (scrot) and capture movies (ffmpeg),
> > rotate the screen (xrandr), and even emulate Left and Right
> > Mouse Clicks, as well as all the usual window functions (raise,
> > lower, resize, move, etc).
> 
> I also tend to use programs that allow me to use the keyboard.
> mplayer - and its successor, mpv - work great with the keyboard.
> xv works great for displaying GIFs and JPEGs.  (At least older
> ones - some newer JPEGs contain codes that xv can't handle.

In Debian I think that xv fell by the wayside between woody and sarge.
It seemed to get stuck at 3.10a. IIRC it was always in non-free
because of its licence, so I can only check via my   dpkg -l
listings. So I haven't used it for 15 years, moving on to xzgv.
xv is really an editor, isn't it?

> At
> that point I reluctantly fall back to ristretto.  No doubt there
> are programs that would suit my needs better, but I haven't been
> willing to take the time to find them.)
> 
> > So my mouse gets very little exercise, and most of the time it's
> > just used to set which window has focus.
> 
> What, you don't use alt-tab?  :-)

No, because that's not the way I lay things out in fvwm.
(There's a hint in https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/01/msg00478.html)
When windows overlap each other, Raise and Lower usually suffice.
Otherwise I nudge the mouse or finger the touchpad.
(More important to me than avoiding the mouse at all costs is
reducing the occasions on which it has to be used with any
precision, because that's what can cause mobility issues.)

I don't know which WM you use, but I think it's true that knowing
someone uses fvwm gives almost no indication of what their screen
looks like or how they work. It's more of a toolkit than an
application, which might explain why its man page runs to over 7000
lines. I suspect most people who start using it have grabbed someone
else's configuration file off the web and then modified it. It would
be a steep learning curve to start writing one from scratch.

Cheers,
David.