Re: piece of mind (Re: Moderated posts?)
Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org> writes:
> So at this point, most of us are pretty tired of the subject.
And just ignore it and the consequences because you're tired of thinking
about it?
> Secondly, Russ Allbrey did an amazing job during the -ctte decision of
> weighing systemd vs the alternatives.
Has any of this been brought to the attention of the users? I've been,
as others have, asking many times what the proposed advantages of
systemd are supposed to be, and these questions have never been
sufficiently answered. All I have experienced are some of its
disadvantages.
> Thirdly, DDs feel empowered to fix problems. Not because they can upload
> packages to Debian, but because they can file bug reports and work with
> others to get them fixed. It's what we do.
Last time I made a bug report, the package maintainer didn't show any
interest in fixing anything. That has become my default experience,
with very few exceptions.
> I'd hope that anyone who has the time and expertise to participate in
> 1000+ message theads about systemd that dig into the source code and
> discuss rather rarified theories of software engineering also feels
> empowered to file bug reports and work to get actual problems fixed.
Why would someone who is opposed to systemd be interested in its bugs
getting fixed, especially when experiencing that the devs even decline
to fix bugs which would be very easy to fix? This is one of the reasons
why I'm opposed to systemd in the first place.
> If you do, you will probably feel less need to engage in such threads.
> And, if you appreciate this process of how software is improved, you'll
> start to, perhaps, become a little bit suspicious that some voting-based
> GR process can have as good results overall.
I already suspected that there won't be a good outcome of such a GR.
Since you point out that the devs are tired of it, it seems even more
unlikely that there might be a good outcome because none of them would
be willing to actually think about the issue.
> Fourthly, I think that many DDs feel that releasing jessie with systemd
> as the default won't make it appreciably harder to revert to
> non-systemd-as-default later than it would have been if we stuck with
> sysvinit for this release.
Then what's the point of making systemd the default?
> Not that it would be easy to ditch systemd. But there's a lot of FUD
> going around here about sysvinit support rotting because systemd is the
> default
That branch of the discussion has probably come up out of fear that it
won't be possible to keep ones' system free of systemd.
> So most of our concern about being locked into systemd is that desktop
> environments are coming to require it, and that systemd-shim may be hard
> to keep working in the long term. But desktop environments like Gnome
> were already requiring systemd before Debian switched to it; Debian
> cannot hold back the tide.
I'm not using Gnome or the like, and it doesn't seem to be likely that I
could have a systemd-free system nonetheless.
> I'd say that the chances of a GR at this point in the release process
> are about 1 in 1000. It'd take 5 DDs simulantaneously having a bad day
> like John did, or massive evidence of unhappy users.
There seem to be quite a lot of unhappy users. I can understand that
having a GR might not be the right way to make a decision in this case,
either.
> And I mean, hard statistical evidence of that on eg [3], not a few
IIRC, popcon was usually considered as a rather doubtworthy source of
statistical information. That there are some installations of systemd
could be due to that people are currently trying it out. Later it may
be due to systemd having become the default.
> users posting arguments against systemd that are often highly slanted
> and innaccurate and have in any case been seen over and over again
> before.
I'm not convinced that all arguments have been brought up before. If
they have, I'm sure you could explain how it is possible that Debian,
amongst other distributions, silently accepts to become fully dependent
on systemd which shows lots of signs that it is the sort of MCP that
causes the protagonists in the Tron movies so much trouble, if it's not
worse.
--
Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons
might swallow us. Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
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