Re: End of hypocrisy ?
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:15 AM, Bob Proulx <bob@proulx.com> wrote:
> Tom H wrote:
>> Bob Proulx wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe the point was that it should be "make before break". They
>>> should have allowed people to use systemd without preventing people
>>> from not using it. They didn't make a new system without breaking the
>>> old one. They broke the old one while trying to build the new one.
>>> That is the problem. You shouldn't burn down your old house while you
>>> are still designing and building your new house.
>>
>> Had Gnome not had to rely on systemd as pid 1, we might not have had a
>> CTTE bug, etc.
>
> But then the question becames did the GNOME 3 folks "had to rely" on
> systemd? Did they really have to do it? No. We have had a plethora
> of window managers and desktop systms for years and years and years
> without it. They didn't have to require it.
>
> I am not saying that there weren't corner cases with problems. I am
> saying that for all of those years we were apparently happy in spite
> of those corner case problems. Therefore I don't think GNOME 3 "had"
> to rely on systemd as pid 1. That is disproven by the last few
> decades without it. And somehow I think all of the happy *BSD users
> who don't have systemd will also disagree that it is a hard
> requirement.
>
> My point is that it would have been much easier if they had created a
> system that you could optionally migrate to without being *forced*
> onto it. Then if it turns out to be clearly superior people will
> desire to move to it. People would then move of their own volition
> because they would want to move to it. If they had done it that way
> it would have avoided much unpleasantness.
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was just reminding you of the chronology.
IIRC it was the maintainer of the Gnome power applet who decided to
depend on logind. There was some pushback and his response was "I'm
the maintainer. It's my decision."
Olav Vitters, a Gnome guy who always argues on behalf of Gnome/systemd
on debian-devel@ (I don't think that he's involved in Debian in any
other way), has said on his blog "it seems eventually GNOME will head
to be systemd and Linux-only" (even when he was saying the opposite on
debian-devel@, like "we support consolekit").
So I agree with you (and I should've said so in my earlier post) that,
for jessie, sysvinit should've been the default init and those people
wanting to use systemd (or Gnome {or KDE[?]}) would've added
"init=/lib/systemd/systemd" to the kernel cmdline. The Debian systemd
maintainers could've used that extra release to integrate systemd
without the pressure of an upcoming freeze/release.
As I've said in an earlier thread, AIUI, systemd is going to be the
only init unless someone develops a dbus manager (for a standalone
udev; the way that Ubuntu developed a cgroup manager for a standalone
logind) once kdbus is in-kernel uptream and Debian compiles it into
its kernel.
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