Re: Choosing among "Desktop Enviroments" and/or "Windows Managers"
On Wednesday 18 September 2013 14:10:43 Richard Owlett wrote:
> berenger.morel@neutralite.org wrote:
> > Le 18.09.2013 14:22, berenger.morel@neutralite.org a écrit :
> >> To switch between DEs, you can do it with the usual connection
> >> managers, IIRC.
> >> But I personally prefer to login on TTY and then start the window
> >> manager/DE of my choice. Usually, DEs have a
> >> 'start-my_favorite_de'
> >> command to do that. If you are tired about starting them by hand
> >> everytime, you can add those lines to your ~/.bash_profile file:
> >>
> >> ============
> >> if [ -z "$DISPLAY" ] && [ $(tty) == /dev/tty1 ];then
> >> startx
> >> fi
> >> ============
> >> Of course, starting from here can allow you to think about other
> >> things, like using startx for tty1, gnome for tty2, kde for
> >> tty3, etc.
> >> It is like the usual connection managers, but without the mouse or
> >> eyecandy stuff, and more lightweight. My current only problem with
> >> that is that I still need to enter my login and password at start,
> >> which is boring on my desktop, but I never tried to fix that
> >> for now.
> >>
> >> Le 16.09.2013 20:57, Richard Owlett a écrit :
> >>> Dan Ritter wrote:
> >>>> On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 10:06:32AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>>>> As I have minimal to *NO INTERNET* access, when Debian 7.1 DVDs
> >>>>> became available from vendors I purchased the 10 DVD set. I
> >>>>> also
> >>>>> purchased the live DVDs for Gnome, lxde, kde, and xfce. I
> >>>>> did some
> >>>>> test runs of each. I chose xfce for my initial Wheezy
> >>>>> install based
> >>>>> almost exclusively on "look and feel". It felt "comfortable"
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> seemed to express my somewhat vague ideas of how a GUI
> >>>>> should 'act'.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It was an educational experience. Each had something I'd
> >>>>> like to see
> >>>>> in an ideal installation. I also did more web browsing
> >>>>> comparing
> >>>>> "Desktop Environments" to "Windows Managers" and product
> >>>>> comparisons
> >>>>> within those classifications.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> /Questions
> >>>>> 1. Given that I prefer LILO over GRUB and xfce over
> >>>>> Gnome/lxde/kde,
> >>>>> what GUIs should I investigate further.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you're happy with xfce, you shouldn't need to look further.
> >>>> xfce is a fully supported, first-class environment.
> >>>
> >>> I don't _need_ to, but I'm involved with other projects which
> >>> might
> >>> benefit. Also I'm retired with lots of free time and I find
> >>> the topic
> >>> interesting.
> >>
> >> If you like XFCE, you might also look at LXDE. It's tools are less
> >> linked between them than those of XFCE, and it's even more
> >> lightweight. I now use some carefully chosen parts of it in
> >> combination with i3, such as the primitive text editor (for
> >> notes. I
> >> use vim when I need a strong one) and the terminal emulator.
> >>
> >> Now, it seem you only know about stacking window managers. Let me
> >> give you a different direction to explore: tiling window managers.
> >> I will try to be as objective as possible, but remember that
> >> when I
> >> tried them, I simply fell in love with that paradigm, probably
> >> because
> >> I always was a computer tinkerer. So you are warned.
> >> There are, AFAIK, no DE with some of them (well, I have heard that
> >> KDE had an optional one in previous versions, but it was
> >> removed. No
> >> idea about the truth in those words, KDE is too heavy for my
> >> computer
> >> uses) but if you use lightweight DE, you can usually change the
> >> window
> >> manager.
> >>
> >> If you want the name of one on official DVDs, I think I would
> >> speak
> >> about i3, which is the first one I successfully tried, and the one
> >> which remain on my computers, bot netbook and dekstop with 2
> >> screens.
> >> It's documentation claims that it is for powerusers but... I
> >> think it
> >> is only to not have people come and bother them with stupid
> >> questions
> >> like how to edit a text file, because the doc itself is very
> >> clear,
> >> and the configuration of that DE is *NOT* made with a programming
> >> language, which is a strong point and something which makes it
> >> very
> >> easy to use. In short, it uses a real configuration file, and
> >> it works
> >> when you install it, unlike all other TWM I have tried (but others
> >> have other features which can be useful as well).
> >>
> >> Now, why could someone be interested in that kind of managers?
> >> The difference is simply that, instead of having a stack of
> >> windows
> >> of different sizes that you have to manually set, each new
> >> window is
> >> automatically placed on the desktop and all windows are resized to
> >> fill the entire space without overlapping.
> >> This allows, for example, to control everything with your keyboard
> >> (pretty useful if you are mostly working with text, because you
> >> do not
> >> have to move a hand to the mouse.), or if you have more than one
> >> screen, it is really easier to be efficient with them, when it's
> >> painful with classic window managers (moving a mouse from a
> >> screen to
> >> another just to focus another application is painful, and using
> >> alt-tab is not always very fast).
> >>
> >> The problem is that they are usually not beautiful. I guess
> >> that the
> >> reason is that they are not very well known, and so, often made by
> >> power users for power users, like i3 claim.
> >> The beauty problem resides in the fact that there is no
> >> transparent
> >> windows, no rounded corners, no buttons to control the windows,
> >> etc
> >> (but there is still an optional title bar). This imply that heavy
> >> mouse users will find them harder to use, but maybe ( I never
> >> tried
> >> that ) it can be fixed by using window decorators or
> >> integrating them
> >> into a lightweight DE such as XFCE or LXDE.
> >> On the other hand, that lack of beautiful stuff also implies
> >> that you
> >> spend less screen space for theoretically beautiful things
> >> (beauty is
> >> a matter of personal tastes), and less computer resources.
> >> Thanks to
> >> that kind of wm, I made a netbook faster and nicer to use than
> >> computer with more space and faster CPUs. At least, in my
> >> opinion, of
> >> course.
> >>
> >> The problem which come with the fact that they are made for power
> >> users is proven by the fact that most of them needs to know
> >> programming languages or techniques ( such as compiling ) to
> >> configure
> >> them. However, it is not true for i3, and it's why I have
> >> started with
> >> it and am still with it. I tried others, but learning a new
> >> language
> >> and it's API or having to recompile my softwares to simply
> >> change a
> >> key... I do not like that idea, even if I am myself a software
> >> developer. So, i3 is very good on that point (but have less
> >> features
> >> than some other, and older, TWM, like templates)
> >>
> >> So, if you want to try them (you said you have time, right? ;) )
> >> start with an easy one like i3, and if and when you will like
> >> the idea
> >> behind, feel free to try more advanced ones.
> >>
> >> I know that i3 is on official DVDs. I discovered it like this,
> >> thanks
> >> to debtags. Unlike some others, it works out of the box, but
> >> read the
> >> doc before.
> >> Here are some basic shortcuts for a first try:
> >> _ starting terminal: $mod + enter
> >> _ starting launcher: $mod + d ( it will need suckless tools,
> >> which is
> >> a recommended package. It is one of the rare recommended
> >> packages that
> >> I have installed, so I strongly advice you to install it, at
> >> least in
> >> a first time. Then you might want to replace it with another one.)
> >> _ moving focus: $mod + jklm ( 'm' might be ';' if you are using a
> >> qwerty keyboard. It's simply the key after 'l' ) but it'll work
> >> also
> >> with mouse.
> >> _ closing a window: $mod + q
> >> _ switching to resize mode: $mod + r
> >> _ resizing windows: jklm
> >> _ switching back to standard mode: esc
> >> $mod is a key i3 will ask you at first start, but that you will be
> >> able to change in configuration file.
> >>
> >> Starting a terminal is made by $mod + enter, starting an
> >> application
> >> launcher is made by $mod +d (if you installed suckless tools,
> >> which I
> >> recommend for your start. You will find them in your apt browser
> >> easily, then are recommended by i3-wm package), $mod being a
> >> key i3
> >> will ask you to choose at first start (but you can change it in
> >> the
> >> configuration file of course)
> >
> > And... sorry, I did not read the whole list before writing, so I
> > did not noticed that I said same things than some other people.
> > At least I tried to explain what are tiling window manager :s
>
> Repetition can be good. Sometimes the first time an idea is
> presented the reader doesn't yet have experience to appreciate
> the implications or subtleties.
>
> I am a tinkerer. It is actually my learning mode. That is
> demonstrated my having spent over a year so far doing trial
> installs of Debian (I've been chided for that ;). I'm retired
> thus have time. I occasionally program but do *NOT* see myself as
> a programmer.
>
> My eventual goal is a very lean Debian install using only
> binaries available in the official repositories. I suspect the
> result will be a half dozen metapackages and a heavily customizes
> preseed file.
>
> I'll investigate i3.
Have a look at TDE http://www.trinitydesktop.org/ . It is the one that is
best for me! Wonderfully configurable, and light on the eye - and resources.
But you may hate it.
Lisi
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