Re: Installation

["Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net>]

On Wed, September 12, 2012 8:40 am, lee wrote:
> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>
>> I wouldn't classify partitioning as a 'tiny little detail.'
>
> It is one of the many tiny little steps the installer does.

Agreed.
Many of the steps in the installer are tiny, but I wouldn't classify
partitioning or choosing a filesystem as 'tiny' from the viewpoint of a
newbie doing an install by him/herself. Quite often, that's the way it is,
because not everybody lives in a city and many are not aware that a local
Linux/BSD group exists.
>
>> Neither would the average end user.
>
> What are you trying to say?

That the average end -user would not consider partitioning a minor detail.
It would be more along the lines of an insurmountable object.
>
>> Along with the file system, it's the basis of any system.
>
> We could argue about that.

You probably will.
>
>> Try installing without it and you'll see what I mean.
>
> I've done that. You can have everything on one partition or go without a
> partition and use a device "directly".

O.K., we have to stop and look at something here.
Is going without a partition and employing a device directly something the
average newbie would settle for in preference to partitioning.

Having everything on one partition is a bad idea for anybody.
I think that a separate /home partition could be installed in the Nebie
Install.
A nebie generally needs to reinstall on anumber of occasions - it seems to
be part of the learning process - and they have to on a regular basis with
Windows anyway, so they are already in the habit, but they don't have to
loose their data on each occasion. Once they are up and running, the
different configurations on the install can be explained to them on the
list, wiki, etc., but first a successful install has to happen.

If they can do that, it will keep them going.
A little bit of success is needed to provide anybody with motivation.
Continuous negative bombardment is soul-destroying for anybody and we
won't get many adherents that way.
>
>> And I don't think its helpful to classify the average end user as a
>> 'totally clueless user'.
>> They haven't had the opportunity, until after they have installed, of
>> becoming anything else.
>
> What are you trying to say? That someone is totally clueless before they
> have learned more, and that realising this isn't helpful?

"The First Step toward Knowledge is to Know that We are Ignorant."
-- Richard Cecil

Self admission of an ignorant state can be a life changing moment, but it
has to be a self-judgement.
'Newbie' might be an acceptible term, but I don't think referring to them
as 'clueless' would be helpfull in the context. Why stop at that?
Why don't we label them as 'Pig-Ignorant', or 'Retards'?

>
>> First people have to be able to
>> install a system before they become familiar with it.
>
> People become familiar with a system before or without installing it all
> the time.

People might get to see a GI before installing it, on somebody else's
machine, but they don't become familiar with it until after the install.
Or perhaps all the people on this list are Newbies?
I'm a self-confessed life-long student, but I'm a lot more familiar now
with Debian than I was before I installed it.
That's just the way it works.
You don't start climbing any ladder from the top and the bottom rung is
installation.

Perhaps you were a guru before your first install?
I'm happy for you.
>
>> Without the speed bumps getting removed, we have a very small potential
>> future pool of users, advocates, doc writers, maintainers and
>> developers.
>
> Speed bumps?
>
>>> Have you thought about all the things you would have to explain to the
>>> clueless user to enable them to decide what partitioning they want?
>>> Partitioning involves RAID and lvm,
>>
>> No it doesn't!
>> Those are options that they can look at further down the line when they
>> are more familiar with the territory.
>
> Sure it does. RAID is a requirement since about 10 years now because
> hard disks have become too unreliable to go without. Lvm isn't required,
> though it can be required for the installer to work. You should know
> about it before installing Debian so you can make an educated decision
> about the partitioning you want to use.

To employ those options, and encryption, in the installer, there needs to
be some clarification about what order they need to be installed in, along
with the explanation that, with encryption, you need an unencrypted /boot
partition.
Oops!
Here we are back at partitioning again.

Just as an aside and strictly between you and me, I'm running base-level
IDE discs with no raid or LVM2 and I think most newbies would be doing the
same. As far as encryption goes, they are not immediately going to be
running Hydra and Backtrack5. They would probably be more concerned with
their email client, browsing and a word processor for submitting a resume.
>
>>  it involves file systems
>>
>> I have already covered this also.
>
> Have you? Did you propose to inform people about the advantages and
> disadvantages of different file systems they can use? That makes for a
> lot they will have to read.

No, this could be handled by the default.
A short note to these aspects could point to the wiki for reference however.
If they have a laptop on the side, they could have a quick read before
carrying on with the rest of the install. Perhaps they have massive
graphic files that would be best on one file system rather than another,
or need to know that ext3 will fall back onto ext2 if it fails.
>
>>  and what
>>> the computer is going to be used for;
>>
>> That is something that can be left to apt/aptitude/synaptic once the
>> installation is over and they have had some time to choose what they
>> want.
>> That's free software.
>
> So do you want your clueless users have to change their partitioning
> after the installer has booted them into the installed system (at which
> point the installation isn't completed, keep that in mind)?

No, I can't see where I have said or inferred that.

 Do you want
> the package managers to make guesses about how a computer is being used
> depending on what packages are installed and modify them so that they
> perform such changes?

Ummm, no, I don't see where that comes from either.
>
>>  it involves installing a boot
>>> loader somewhere,
>>
>> That is something that you can just press 'enter' to.
>> Grub-pc installation is automagic.
>
> No you can't. Letting aside that you will be asked where it should be
> installed, I've seen it not working at all many times.

You will be asked where it should be installed if you have more than one
O.S. installed.
That aspect of the installer is quite coherent and I don't see how anybody
could be confused.
A newbie wouldn't, but somebody that was 'clueless' might.
>
>>  and it might involve other operating systems and/or
>>> virtual machines that are or will be installed on the same computer. It
>>> involves considering the kind of available storage devices since you
>>> might want to use an SSD for a different purpose than your conventional
>>> hard disk, and you might want to put some things on the faster disks
>>> you
>>> have rather than on the slower ones and deciding where to put your swap
>>> partitions. It involves considering reliability issues and backup
>>> strategies --- and probably a lot more I'm too lazy to think of. And
>>> what if something doesn't work?
>>
>> We appear to have wandered completely away from newbie territory, Doctor
>> Livingstone!
>
> Then your conclusion must be that partitioning cannot be done by your
> newbie.
>
>>> If you think you can explain all that to the clueless user in 10 or 20
>>> lines of 80cpl text you can put into the installer with a chance of the
>>> clueless user reading them, I'd like to see what you'd put in. Just
>>> don't dumbfound the user by putting some nonsense and unhelpful
>>> blah-blah into it that doesn't even touch the point like the so-called
>>> "documentation" does that you get with windoze.
>>
>> I think we can all agree that none of this is required in this context.
>
> You are the one proposing to put information into the Debian installer
> which enables clueless users to make educated decisions about
> partitioning during the installation.

I don't see the point in leaving them uneducated.

 I have pointed out a few things
> that need to be considered in this context, and you claim considering
> them isn't necessary.

What you point out is required for somebody running more than a basic,
nebie system

>From what I can see, virtual machine territory, etc., isn't the usual
newbie realm.

 Sure someone can make a decision about
> partitioning without considering everything that needs to be
> considered. That won't be an educated decision, though, and very likely
> not a good one.

For the average newbie that wants an email client, a browser and an office
suite, along with being able to watch a movie and listen to some music, it
will be good enough.
As his/her IT career takes off, they can talk details of advanced cluster
configuration and other adminitration matters with you.
>
> You haven't even started yet to point out what you think is necessary to
> consider to make a decision about partitioning.

Let's win the first battle before we carry on with the rest of the war.
>
>>> Keep in mind that partitioning isn't the only part of the installation
>>> process. Maybe you now understand why I'm suggesting that deciding
>>> about
>>> the partitioning is something to be done /before/ the installation
>>> rather than something to be decided by a clueless user who's stuck
>>> without a working computer somewhere in the installation process. If
>>> that user has to ask "What is partitioning?", they are at the wrong
>>> place.
>>
>> Not if the information is there.
>
> And you think they would spend a day or two or however long it takes
> them to understand all the information while being stuck in the Debian
> installer with a simple question they should know the answer to before
> they start the installer?

I have searched the annals and can't find any reference to this either.

 I guess you say they shouldn't need to know
> the answer. I say they should know the answer (and a lot of other things
> as well) before starting the installer.

And I don't.
The average newbie's requirements simply aren't that sophisticated.

 I also say it might be better to
> give those who don't know anything a working system so that they don't
> need to know and can use that working system to find out more if they
> want to --- *if* you really want clueless people to have such a thing,
> which I really don't want them to have unless they are capable of
> learning a lot and do learn. Most people don't. Not everything is for
> everyone.

Yes, but I would maintain that the opportunity to find out is their
decision and some level of accessibility is not out of line with
humanitarian principle.
>
> What you have been totally ignoring so far is that different people have
> different ways of learning. It's hard to understand that lots of people
> do not learn by reading documentation and by maybe trying out
> things. They need a teacher, or they need pictures, or they need to
> learn in a totally different order than any you might think of ---
> whatever suits them best. How do you propose that the Debian installer
> shall be modified to accommodate all the possible different ways of
> learning?

Historically, documentation has been the learning medium for every subject
of human endeavour under the sun.
It is true that evrybody has different levels of comprehension through
different media, depending on what accent their particular modality of
learning style combination inclines them to. Some might need to read the
documentation only once, others twice, and others half a dozen times, but
I think you will find that most of them can read and have some level of
comprehension associated with that.

Perhaps we could leave the discussion concerning learning styles and the
effect this might have, in individual cases, for another occasion. I will
be happy to take part then, but perhaps you might like to keep in mind
that this is in association with no more than ten lines of text and that I
am an instructional designer of some considerable experience.
>
>>>>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
>>>>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information
>>>>> and
>>>>> additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the
>>>>> installer?
>>
>> I've never needed more than the one I've got.
>> I have needed an internet connection.
>
> You can get away with that if everything works fine and nothing
> unforeseen happens. That usually isn't the case when installing
> Debian.

Yes, it is.
Or at least it has been for me.

 Anyway, even if someone doesn't need a working computer to
> install an OS on one, it's better to have one in case it's needed. So
> give it to everyone on the Debian installer DVD/blueray. You don't have
> to use it.
>
>>>>> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button
>>>>> they
>>>>> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no
>>>>> questions
>>>>> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away
>>>>> from
>>>>> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.
>>>>
>>>> That is not what is being advocated and I don't see the relevance with
>>>> Debian either.
>>>
>>> Well, that is your imagination of users educating themselves about how
>>> their computer and the software works. Why don't you want to give such
>>> users a working system that, besides other advantages, allows them to
>>> educate themselves as thoroughly as they see fit while or even before
>>> they install Debian on their computers? Why don't you want to give
>>> users
>>> who don't want to educate themselves the option to simply press a
>>> button
>>> and as a result have Debian installed on their computers so that they
>>> can do whatever they want?
>>
>> Because I believe that the best way to climb a ladder is at the first
>> step.
>> After that, it's up to the individual user to decide as to whether they
>> are high enough or not. Most (90%) just want a working system, but how
>> many potential developers are put off by an initial first step?
>
> Why do you insist that the first step for everyone must be using the
> Debian installer to install Debian on their computer? That doesn't make
> sense to me, and there are many other possibilities. --- From what
> you've been saying, it wasn't the first step for you. It wasn't the
> first step for me, either.
>
> When it comes to install Debian --- or to climbing a ladder to some
> purpose --- there are steps that come /before/ placing your foot on the
> first step of the ladder. You need to figure out whether a ladder is the
> right tool for the job or not, then get one, then place the ladder in
> such a way that it is sufficiently unlikely to trip over when you climb
> it, then you grab the tools or whatever you're going to need when you
> reach the top of the ladder. The day before you may have made sure that
> you have health insurance and checked the weather forecast because you
> don't want to repair the roof while it's raining. You have checked that
> you have the necessary tools and/or materials ready because you don't
> want to climb the ladder up just to find out that you have to climb down
> again and take an hour to go to town to get what you need. Even if you
> don't mind getting wet, the roof can be slippery from the rain and you
> may want to adjust the kind of shoes you're wearing or wait for better
> weather if you don't want to fall off the roof and break your neck. You
> may have asked a neighbour to keep an eye open in case you fall off the
> roof and they need to call an ambulance --- a simple precaution that may
> save your life.

Give me a call.
I'd be interested in the film and video rights.
>
>
> You're right, though: You're setting your foot on the first step of
> something without having thought anything about it through at all. I can
> clearly see you doing it in this discussion. Pure enthusiasm like this
> can be successful in some cases, and it doesn't tend to get you anywhere
> you want to be. It's a way to make mistakes that could have been
> avoided. Sometimes there's no other reasonable option, and I don't like
> such cases very much.

I think you'll find that most people don't see the need to make a simple
climb up a ladder that complex.
It isn't.
An eldely uncle might have advised that it is smart to have the base of
the ladder out one foot for every foot in height - an important point
which I notice you didn't include - and after that, it's all about getting
to the destination.
Do you seriously ring the local ambulance association before driving down
to the local Post Office in case there's an accident?
>
>> Why are other Debian-based distributions so obsessed with the installer?
>
> I don't know --- you'll have to ask them, not me.

Because they understand exactly what I am referring to.
>
>>> You can advocate dumbfounding users by putting a few lines of text into
>>> the installer.
>>
>> Ummmm, no, I haven't advocated that anywhere.
>> The whole concept behind those 'few lines of text' is to remove the
>> 'dumbfounding' factor.
>
> Sorry, "dumbfounding" was the wrong the word. I wanted to say "make
> stupid".
>
>>>  I hate dumbfounding users like that, and that some users
>
> That should be "I hate making user stupid ...".
>
>>> want to be dumbfounded doesn't mean that I have to do or to propose
>>> it. What you propose is contradictory to what you seem to want, which
>>> is
>>> something you probably haven't realised yet. I'm telling you that there
>>> is another option which I think is much better, and you want to totally
>>> ignore it and accuse me of distorting things (lmao).
>>>
>>> So why did you bring this topic up for discussion when you don't want
>>> to
>>> discuss it? You seem to have already decided what you want, and nobody
>>> prevents you from doing it. Don't expect me or someone else to tell you
>>> that you should do it. I'm telling you that you shouldn't.
>>
>> I would go along with anything you said if it was based on something
>> other
>> than confused, emotive rhetoric to the point that I could understand it.
>
> Well, I can't help you when you can't understand what I'm saying
> (provided that I manage to use the right words).
>
>> All I am advocating is a small advisory page prior to the partitioning
>> section of the installer.
>> You are advocating - everything!
>
> You're advocating to make or keep users stupid by giving them
> insufficient information.

No, I am advocating supplying new users with the information they need and
only the information they need that applies to partitioning.

 It's a way of getting rid of exactly those
> users you seem to want to attract because users who don't want to remain
> clueless hate it when they are being kept stupid.

I haven't specified how the information should be conveyed but you have
already passed judgement on it.
I feel slighted and wronged and not at all abashed.
>
> For users who don't want to remain clueless, give them all the
> information. Don't limit these users to what you can put into the
> installer! Give them a working system before they install Debian on
> their computer so they can get more information about anything they want
> to know. Help them by telling them what they might want to know ---
> because one problem when you don't know anything is that don't even know
> what you might need to know. I have pointed out a few things which is
> reasonable to look into before deciding about partitioning. --- A
> working system before installing would be great to have for non-clueless
> users as well, as I have pointed out.

I don't think you will find that this concept is conducive to economic
logistics.
>
> The users who want to remain clueless or who don't have a choice can't
> be helped. Some people just don't get along with computers, and trying
> to make them is the wrong approach.
>
> Who do you think you are that you think you can decide what someone
> needs to know to partition their hard disks? Let users decide what they
> want to know themselves. You can help them by giving them something that
> gets them started, not by giving them something that limits them and
> keeps them stupid. You got suggestions to that which you deny, your only
> argument being your assumption that it's too much for them, which even
> contradicts your imagination of users venturing out to learn more. It's
> not your decision to make how much information is too much for someone.

I just don't think that the Debian Administrators Handbook would fit into
the installer context very well.
>
> So now, what do you suggest to actually put into the installer?

I was thinking of something much more brief and pertaining only to
partitioning, but first I will have to find an old drive and do an install
to see exactly what is needed.
Regards,

Weaver
-- 
"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its  government."
 -- Thomas Paine