Re: Installation
On Wed, 2012-09-12 at 17:40 +0200, lee wrote:
> "Weaver" <weaver@riseup.net> writes:
>
> > I wouldn't classify partitioning as a 'tiny little detail.'
>
> It is one of the many tiny little steps the installer does.
>
> > Neither would the average end user.
>
> What are you trying to say?
>
> > Along with the file system, it's the basis of any system.
>
> We could argue about that.
>
> > Try installing without it and you'll see what I mean.
>
> I've done that. You can have everything on one partition or go without a
> partition and use a device "directly".
>
> > And I don't think its helpful to classify the average end user as a
> > 'totally clueless user'.
> > They haven't had the opportunity, until after they have installed, of
> > becoming anything else.
>
> What are you trying to say? That someone is totally clueless before they
> have learned more, and that realising this isn't helpful?
>
> > First people have to be able to
> > install a system before they become familiar with it.
>
> People become familiar with a system before or without installing it all
> the time.
>
> > Without the speed bumps getting removed, we have a very small potential
> > future pool of users, advocates, doc writers, maintainers and developers.
>
> Speed bumps?
>
> >> Have you thought about all the things you would have to explain to the
> >> clueless user to enable them to decide what partitioning they want?
> >> Partitioning involves RAID and lvm,
> >
> > No it doesn't!
> > Those are options that they can look at further down the line when they
> > are more familiar with the territory.
>
> Sure it does. RAID is a requirement since about 10 years now because
> hard disks have become too unreliable to go without. Lvm isn't required,
> though it can be required for the installer to work. You should know
> about it before installing Debian so you can make an educated decision
> about the partitioning you want to use.
>
> > it involves file systems
> >
> > I have already covered this also.
>
> Have you? Did you propose to inform people about the advantages and
> disadvantages of different file systems they can use? That makes for a
> lot they will have to read.
>
> > and what
> >> the computer is going to be used for;
> >
> > That is something that can be left to apt/aptitude/synaptic once the
> > installation is over and they have had some time to choose what they want.
> > That's free software.
>
> So do you want your clueless users have to change their partitioning
> after the installer has booted them into the installed system (at which
> point the installation isn't completed, keep that in mind)? Do you want
> the package managers to make guesses about how a computer is being used
> depending on what packages are installed and modify them so that they
> perform such changes?
>
> > it involves installing a boot
> >> loader somewhere,
> >
> > That is something that you can just press 'enter' to.
> > Grub-pc installation is automagic.
>
> No you can't. Letting aside that you will be asked where it should be
> installed, I've seen it not working at all many times.
>
> > and it might involve other operating systems and/or
> >> virtual machines that are or will be installed on the same computer. It
> >> involves considering the kind of available storage devices since you
> >> might want to use an SSD for a different purpose than your conventional
> >> hard disk, and you might want to put some things on the faster disks you
> >> have rather than on the slower ones and deciding where to put your swap
> >> partitions. It involves considering reliability issues and backup
> >> strategies --- and probably a lot more I'm too lazy to think of. And
> >> what if something doesn't work?
> >
> > We appear to have wandered completely away from newbie territory, Doctor
> > Livingstone!
>
> Then your conclusion must be that partitioning cannot be done by your
> newbie.
>
> >> If you think you can explain all that to the clueless user in 10 or 20
> >> lines of 80cpl text you can put into the installer with a chance of the
> >> clueless user reading them, I'd like to see what you'd put in. Just
> >> don't dumbfound the user by putting some nonsense and unhelpful
> >> blah-blah into it that doesn't even touch the point like the so-called
> >> "documentation" does that you get with windoze.
> >
> > I think we can all agree that none of this is required in this context.
>
> You are the one proposing to put information into the Debian installer
> which enables clueless users to make educated decisions about
> partitioning during the installation. I have pointed out a few things
> that need to be considered in this context, and you claim considering
> them isn't necessary. Sure someone can make a decision about
> partitioning without considering everything that needs to be
> considered. That won't be an educated decision, though, and very likely
> not a good one.
>
> You haven't even started yet to point out what you think is necessary to
> consider to make a decision about partitioning.
>
> >> Keep in mind that partitioning isn't the only part of the installation
> >> process. Maybe you now understand why I'm suggesting that deciding about
> >> the partitioning is something to be done /before/ the installation
> >> rather than something to be decided by a clueless user who's stuck
> >> without a working computer somewhere in the installation process. If
> >> that user has to ask "What is partitioning?", they are at the wrong
> >> place.
> >
> > Not if the information is there.
>
> And you think they would spend a day or two or however long it takes
> them to understand all the information while being stuck in the Debian
> installer with a simple question they should know the answer to before
> they start the installer? I guess you say they shouldn't need to know
> the answer. I say they should know the answer (and a lot of other things
> as well) before starting the installer. I also say it might be better to
> give those who don't know anything a working system so that they don't
> need to know and can use that working system to find out more if they
> want to --- *if* you really want clueless people to have such a thing,
> which I really don't want them to have unless they are capable of
> learning a lot and do learn. Most people don't. Not everything is for
> everyone.
>
> What you have been totally ignoring so far is that different people have
> different ways of learning. It's hard to understand that lots of people
> do not learn by reading documentation and by maybe trying out
> things. They need a teacher, or they need pictures, or they need to
> learn in a totally different order than any you might think of ---
> whatever suits them best. How do you propose that the Debian installer
> shall be modified to accommodate all the possible different ways of
> learning?
>
> >>>> For more than a decade now you need a working computer to install an
> >>>> operating system on another one so that you can acquire information and
> >>>> additional software as needed. Why isn't that included in the
> >>>> installer?
> >
> > I've never needed more than the one I've got.
> > I have needed an internet connection.
>
> You can get away with that if everything works fine and nothing
> unforeseen happens. That usually isn't the case when installing
> Debian. Anyway, even if someone doesn't need a working computer to
> install an OS on one, it's better to have one in case it's needed. So
> give it to everyone on the Debian installer DVD/blueray. You don't have
> to use it.
>
> >>>> For those who don't want to or are unable to learn, have a button they
> >>>> can press to perform the installation, no matter what and no questions
> >>>> asked. However, those are the kind of people who better stay away from
> >>>> computers, which makes it doubtful how useful such a thing would be.
> >>>
> >>> That is not what is being advocated and I don't see the relevance with
> >>> Debian either.
> >>
> >> Well, that is your imagination of users educating themselves about how
> >> their computer and the software works. Why don't you want to give such
> >> users a working system that, besides other advantages, allows them to
> >> educate themselves as thoroughly as they see fit while or even before
> >> they install Debian on their computers? Why don't you want to give users
> >> who don't want to educate themselves the option to simply press a button
> >> and as a result have Debian installed on their computers so that they
> >> can do whatever they want?
> >
> > Because I believe that the best way to climb a ladder is at the first step.
> > After that, it's up to the individual user to decide as to whether they
> > are high enough or not. Most (90%) just want a working system, but how
> > many potential developers are put off by an initial first step?
>
> Why do you insist that the first step for everyone must be using the
> Debian installer to install Debian on their computer? That doesn't make
> sense to me, and there are many other possibilities. --- From what
> you've been saying, it wasn't the first step for you. It wasn't the
> first step for me, either.
>
> When it comes to install Debian --- or to climbing a ladder to some
> purpose --- there are steps that come /before/ placing your foot on the
> first step of the ladder. You need to figure out whether a ladder is the
> right tool for the job or not, then get one, then place the ladder in
> such a way that it is sufficiently unlikely to trip over when you climb
> it, then you grab the tools or whatever you're going to need when you
> reach the top of the ladder. The day before you may have made sure that
> you have health insurance and checked the weather forecast because you
> don't want to repair the roof while it's raining. You have checked that
> you have the necessary tools and/or materials ready because you don't
> want to climb the ladder up just to find out that you have to climb down
> again and take an hour to go to town to get what you need. Even if you
> don't mind getting wet, the roof can be slippery from the rain and you
> may want to adjust the kind of shoes you're wearing or wait for better
> weather if you don't want to fall off the roof and break your neck. You
> may have asked a neighbour to keep an eye open in case you fall off the
> roof and they need to call an ambulance --- a simple precaution that may
> save your life.
>
>
> You're right, though: You're setting your foot on the first step of
> something without having thought anything about it through at all. I can
> clearly see you doing it in this discussion. Pure enthusiasm like this
> can be successful in some cases, and it doesn't tend to get you anywhere
> you want to be. It's a way to make mistakes that could have been
> avoided. Sometimes there's no other reasonable option, and I don't like
> such cases very much.
>
> > Why are other Debian-based distributions so obsessed with the installer?
>
> I don't know --- you'll have to ask them, not me.
>
> >> You can advocate dumbfounding users by putting a few lines of text into
> >> the installer.
> >
> > Ummmm, no, I haven't advocated that anywhere.
> > The whole concept behind those 'few lines of text' is to remove the
> > 'dumbfounding' factor.
>
> Sorry, "dumbfounding" was the wrong the word. I wanted to say "make
> stupid".
>
> >> I hate dumbfounding users like that, and that some users
>
> That should be "I hate making user stupid ...".
>
> >> want to be dumbfounded doesn't mean that I have to do or to propose
> >> it. What you propose is contradictory to what you seem to want, which is
> >> something you probably haven't realised yet. I'm telling you that there
> >> is another option which I think is much better, and you want to totally
> >> ignore it and accuse me of distorting things (lmao).
> >>
> >> So why did you bring this topic up for discussion when you don't want to
> >> discuss it? You seem to have already decided what you want, and nobody
> >> prevents you from doing it. Don't expect me or someone else to tell you
> >> that you should do it. I'm telling you that you shouldn't.
> >
> > I would go along with anything you said if it was based on something other
> > than confused, emotive rhetoric to the point that I could understand it.
>
> Well, I can't help you when you can't understand what I'm saying
> (provided that I manage to use the right words).
>
> > All I am advocating is a small advisory page prior to the partitioning
> > section of the installer.
> > You are advocating - everything!
>
> You're advocating to make or keep users stupid by giving them
> insufficient information. It's a way of getting rid of exactly those
> users you seem to want to attract because users who don't want to remain
> clueless hate it when they are being kept stupid.
>
> For users who don't want to remain clueless, give them all the
> information. Don't limit these users to what you can put into the
> installer! Give them a working system before they install Debian on
> their computer so they can get more information about anything they want
> to know. Help them by telling them what they might want to know ---
> because one problem when you don't know anything is that don't even know
> what you might need to know. I have pointed out a few things which is
> reasonable to look into before deciding about partitioning. --- A
> working system before installing would be great to have for non-clueless
> users as well, as I have pointed out.
>
> The users who want to remain clueless or who don't have a choice can't
> be helped. Some people just don't get along with computers, and trying
> to make them is the wrong approach.
>
> Who do you think you are that you think you can decide what someone
> needs to know to partition their hard disks? Let users decide what they
> want to know themselves. You can help them by giving them something that
> gets them started, not by giving them something that limits them and
> keeps them stupid. You got suggestions to that which you deny, your only
> argument being your assumption that it's too much for them, which even
> contradicts your imagination of users venturing out to learn more. It's
> not your decision to make how much information is too much for someone.
>
> So now, what do you suggest to actually put into the installer?
Apologize, but I won't trim the post. This is an excellent example of
computer nerds are missing what is important for averaged humans.
No averaged desktop PC user ever should deal with RAID, LVM or should
think about the used file system. You all and I mike dislike or like
EXT4, but at the moment it's the most common FS used by default for
Linux and that IMO is ok. RAID at home is idiotic. LVM in general is
idiotic. At the moment I play with LVM using VBox, that's fun, but LVM
for averaged users only would lead to confusion.
Since some years I install all my Linux on a single partition. I'm using
separated partitions for data and I backup to another HD. LVM will force
you to at least have a separated boot partition. An averaged user won't
benefit from separated partitions for root, home, tmp, boot.
Regarding to the way we learn. Yes, people learn in different ways, but
we've one way of learning in common. Learning by doing, but you only can
do and learn, if you have got a working system to start.
It's amazing, in another post I read that when Debian made it easy to
install Debian, people claimed that would be like Debian would become
Windows. Easy is bad? Wow!
It's completely unimportant what the target of a user is, a basic system
should keep everything open. Unfortunately an idiotic DE like GNOME3,
with e.g. a hard dependency to pulseaudio is a bad choice. Pulseaudio
disables multimedia. Computers today should replace the stereo,
television set etc., so users tend to replace on-board crap with high
quality cards. Bad software like pulseaudio disables the usage of high
quality sound cards.
IMO a computer today isn't for nerds only, but a real tool, like a
television set, a stereo.
It's possible to make it easier, but I've got the impression that it's
not wanted. Some nerds think that knowing much about computers has to do
with self-responsibility. That's wrong. Responsibility and
self-responsibility go hand in hand. "Community" shouldn't be for a
circle of just one concern. "Community" should be for ... some people
have knowledge and contribute to human rights, child care etc. and other
people have knowledge about e.g. Linux and contribute to Linux and all
the people together are a community. But especially computer nerds thing
that they are the center of the universe and many people believe the
hype. If tomorrow no computer would work anymore, it's not the end of
the world. A lot of people still have the abilities to do things without
a computer, what they nowadays do with the computer, at least from my
generation and older. I'm 45 years old. A lot of old handwork is much
more precise than any compute today can do.
I like all kinds of new computers, e.g. tablets, but people should keep
in mind that computers aren't the whole life.
So again. RAID, LVM, the chosen file system are unimportant, this stuff
only is important for some special tasks.
2 Cents,
Ralf
Reply to: