Re: Installation
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:10:31 +0200, lee wrote:
> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:28:18 +0200, lee wrote:
>>
>>> Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> In my planet, yes. Everybody I know uses Windows (starting from my
>>>> mother and ending with my company partners).
>>>
>>> That someone uses it doesn't mean that they are able to fix problems.
>>
>> The simply usage (by pure definition) confers the user some degree of
>> expertise and while it may not generate "Windows geniuses" it will
>> allow at least some basic control about how an operating system works.
>
> Windoze is designed to take away the users control of everything as much
> as possible. Most people using it don't care about how things work or
> anything related to that. If they did, they wouldn't want to have
> windoze on their computers ... They just want the software running they
> think they need, and when you even change the look of an icon they are
> in major trouble because they don't know anymore what button to press.
> That's "usage", they act like robots programmed to press the right
> buttons at the right time. They are not able to fix any problems. If it
> gets too bad, they re-install and start over from scratch.
The above can be true for, let's say ~25%, of the Windows users so
there's still a good amount of people with an average knowledge of their
systems (in Windows parlance, "power users").
>>>> Today, most of the user-friendly Linux distributions you can find out
>>>> there (Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, Debian...) are as easier to install
>>>> and deal with as can be Windows or MacOS in the event they all have
>>>> to be installed from scratch.
>>>
>>> My experiences with that are very different.
>>
>> In what way?
>
> It can be ridiculously difficult to install Debian.
(...)
When it comes to an OS, installation process can be considered
irrelevant. The real problems starts afterwards.
> For the clueless user, it would have been impossible to install it.
The same goes for a clueless Windows user if he/she needs to install the
required drivers to handle the RAID. Or do you thinks this is different
for them?
> I've seen broken Debian installers that couldn't find packages. I've had
> installer CDs that couldn't be read for some reason, so I had to drive
> an hour to the place I worked at to make a new ones and drive an hour
> back.
And I've seen BSOD Windows at the installer which was not able to detect
the storage controller driver. And also printers that cannot be used
because the manufacturer did not provide the 64-bits driver because a 4-
years old device is considered "obsolete" and thus unsupported.
> I've seen not totally clueless windoze users sitting with me in front of
> their computer, looking at the Debian installer and asking me "How do
> you know which keys to press?". It's a totally valid question. I just
> know which keys to press, the clueless user doesn't. How are they
> supposed to know?
To my eyes, clueless windows users are the same than clueless linux
users. What differs them is not the OS but their attitude (how they
confront the problem).
>>> It's the other way round. People using windoze don't know how to fix
>>> problems, they live with them.
>>
>> It will depend on the problem because some problems cannot be avoided:
>> you solve it or you're completely hosed because your system is not able
>> to start :-)
>
> Just re-install and start from scratch, that's what everyone does. That
> you have to do that all the time is one of the reasons why I'm not using
> it.
No sir, a hardware problem cannot be solved by reinstalling the OS: the
problem will be there after you reinstall ;-)
>>> Then look around for solutions to problems you can have with Linux,
>>> and you will find lots of answers and even solutions.
>>
>> And more problems, unsupported hardware, outdated applications...
>
> More problems? I don't know about that.
(...)
I wonder how many bugs have you reported and how of them has been
solved ;-)
> You can even get bugs fixed the next day on a weekend when you report
> one.
You have to be kidding... unless, of course, you are talking about
security fixes or problems for customers that have expressly paid for
support.
> What commercial software has support that good?
That will depend on what you can afford.
> You have the source code, too, so you can even fix them yourself.
You need to be a programmer. And some key packages are not open source
(like the nvidia or fglxr drivers).
> Unsupported hardware, yes, you have to be picky about what you buy ---
> which isn't bad because you avoid crappy hardware which is too likely
> to give you problems to be worth it.
Don't expect a newbie is going to know about that. They will only buy
what it simply fits to their requirements.
> Outdated applications? Yes, some packages in Debian are rather old. So
> I got emacs and fvwm and compiled them myself; how more recent can you
> get?
Again, don't expect a newbie to compile their own packages. I'm a long
time linux user and rarely do...
>>> It's not about finding helpful people. It's what people have been made
>>> to believe.
>>
>> I don't think so. Windows and Linux are both having their own pros and
>> cons, and of course, both do have problems of different nature but
>> problems you have to solve in the end. There are no trouble-free OSes.
>
> People believe that they can solve problems they have with windoze and
> don't believe they can solve problems they have with Linux, and they
> believe they don't have problems when they have a Mac.
Again, it's all around user's attitude.
>>> I've made the same experience, except that I don't use windoze unless
>>> I get payed for it. Nobody solves problems with windoze.
>>
>> Maybe is that you haven't searched enough. Indeed there are many
>> forums, mailing lists and helpful people out there that will try to fix
>> your issues (have you ever heard about Microsoft MVP?)
>
> I searched long enough. MVP? Maybe they didn't have that when I was
> looking. It still doesn't mean that problems can be fixed.
There should be something like the Microsoft's MVP in the Linux
ecosystem, it would be great. And you only have type your problem at the
Google search box and yu'll get thousand hits, lists, forums, blogs and
posts with a solution for your issue as well as many official resources
you can query (Microsoft's KB).
>> The average joe user has developed some skills on Windows.
>
> Some have found out how to live with the problems, yes. I don't call
> workarounds or living with the problems a solution to the problems.
Some have solved their problems. Others have found workarounds and there
will be people that simply could not find a solution and had to go to any
of the thousand tech support assistance points for an expert to deal with
their issues. Should you have a linux system installed, you won't find
many tech. supportes in the real world.
>> Clueless people is not what I'm afraid of. Clueless people who want to
>> remain at their ignorant state perpetually and expect the others solves
>> their problems is what makes me shiver :-)
>
> The clueless people who think they aren't clueless are far worse.
But you can't blame these because they are completely unware about their
status.
> Windoze (and Mac) users pay a lot of money for their software (and way
> too much for their hardware). They can expect that they don't need to
> solve problems.
That's absurd. I pay for a Windows license and I expect many problems.
> They can also expect that they can use their computers intuitively
> because that's what they are being promised.
And sure both Windows and MacOS make that magic to happen.
> Since everyone can do that, everyone's an expert.
Not at all :-)
Again, real problems (regardless the OS) can be only solved by people who
knows how to solve them or are interested in solving them (→ attitude).
Greetings,
--
Camaleón
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