Re: Filing bug reports in Debian (was Re: Debian Stole My Name!)
On Sunday 12 October 2008, Daniel Burrows wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 01:56:57PM -0400, Hal Vaughan
<hal@thresholddigital.com> was heard to say:
> > On Sunday 12 October 2008, Daniel Burrows wrote:
> > > Regardless, I don't see his mail as being at all impolite; just
> > > a little terse.
> >
> > I'll ask you to read in this context: 1) You know very little about
> > how packages in Debian are maintained, 2) You know nothing about
> > the internals of apt, 3) You do not know Christian at all, have no
> > idea what he is like, and do not know what to expect, and 4) You
> > have just found what has every appearance of a severe bug:
> > Upgrading some files can keep a system from booting. While your
> > problem is resolved, you're trying to help the distro you prefer
> > keep that from happening to anyone else.
>
> I agree that this sort of bug report reply is annoying. I'm just
> saying that so far in this thread I've seen Christian accused of
> various forms of trying to make users feel like idiots, being someone
> who "shouldn't be handling bug reports", a developer who is "full or
> air", someone who has "no sense of social ettiquite", etc, etc, etc.
> [0] This is not true. I don't know what was in his mind when he
> wrote the bug report to which you referred (obviously), but I don't
> think he was trying to blow you off. I don't think there's any point
> in further retreads of this ancient bug, we're just going in circles.
>
> [0] his name may not have been used, but his reply to this bug
> report was being held up as an example of this type of individual.
>
> > > It's hard, when replying to a bug, to figure out the level of
> > > detail to include. He included enough information for someone to
> > > figure out what was going on if they were familiar with the
> > > Debian system.
> >
> > With what degree of familiarity? I couldn't figure it out. Now
> > you can go on and call me an idiot, but I test well into the genius
> > range, have depended on only my income from my business based on my
> > own programming for 7 years, and have basically taught myself all
> > the programing languages I now use (I'm not counting BASIC,
> > FORTRAN, and VAX 11/780 Assember that I learned in college, since I
> > no longer use any of those languages). While I fixed my system, I
> > was left with no idea of what was actually going on and wasn't sure
> > what to do if I wanted to make sure someone could prevent this kind
> > of thing from happening again.
>
> I didn't say he was right! My point is that this is a judgment
> call that sometimes gets made incorrectly. You cannot realistically
> expect us to never make mistakes.
>
> > > I can see the point that more information would have been
> > > helpful, but this is an easy mistake to make and I'd hardly call
> > > it an insult.
> >
> > Who said it was an insult?
>
> "I don't know if he's just trying to dazzle me with bs or to make me
> feel like an idiot because he knows so much and I know nothing."
>
> I took that to mean that you thought he was insulting you.
> Apologies if I misunderstood.
>
> > Maybe it's from the jobs I had along the way, but I cannot imagine
> > being part of an organization and someone coming to me for help and
> > saying, "It's not my problem," without doing my best to give them
> > SOME clue on where to go next.
>
> Like I said, I don't think there's any more point in discussing the
> history here. When I handle misdirected bugs, I usually reassign
> them to an appropriate package. I don't know why Christian didn't;
> obviously it was a mistake on his part.
>
> > Rude is a subjective term. Being terse isn't always being rude and
> > one person's rude is another person's terse. However, as you point
> > out, there are times when a developer is tired or out of sorts.
> > That's not a particularly good time to respond to "the public" (or
> > whatever term you want to use. True, you don't have employees, but
> > was there a deadline hanging over his head so he *had* to respond
> > at that time?
>
> Personally, I try not to reply to bug reports when I'm not in the
> right state of mind. However, I've also found that there's a strong
> correlation between lacking the judgment to reply to bug reports and
> lacking the judgment to decide whether I have sufficient judgment to
> reply to bug reports. :-/
>
> > > I can see why you might feel it was frustrating. Particularly
> > > if you automatically assume that the guy on the other end is a
> > > malicious, arrogant jerk rather than someone who's overworked and
> > > trying to deal with a bug that's clearly misdirected.
> >
> > Where did anyone automatically make that assumption? I don't see
> > where anyone said there was such an assumption or why there's a
> > need to bring it up.
>
> This is the general impression I got from reading your emails in
> this thread, the same way you got a general impression that Debian
> developers are hostile and uncooperative. e.g., and I bring this up
> only so you know what I'm talking about, take this comment:
>
> "I'll go even farther: In most cases they've been outright hostile
> and I've had times where they've "told me off" to justify closing the
> bug.
>
> I'm a geek to the core, but the stereotype of programmers or geeks
> that have no social skills seems to come from something and my
> experience, over the past 10 years or so of working with FOSS, tells
> me that filing bug reports is just a good way to invite personal
> abuse."
>
> The "they" refers to FOSS developers, not Debian developers, but
> Debian developers are the specific FOSS developers whose behavior
> was being discussed in this thread.
>
> Anyway, I accept your statement that I misunderstood you.
>
> > > Please remember that we are volunteers. I spend between 5 and
> > > 20 hours, tops, on my Debian work, depending on how much I can
> > > squeeze in around my other activities in my free time. I have
> > > spent one hour of it this week writing this reply to you. If I
> > > answered every user question in enough detail for the most naive
> > > user I can imagine to understand what I meant from my first
> > > reply, I would never have time to do anything else.
> >
> > But you also have to remember that you never know much about each
> > user. Today's naive user could be a developer in a few years. Or
> > they could be someone with a large bank account that might be
> > donating soon. In the very least, as you point out, developers are
> > only human, but so are those filing the bug reports.
>
> I don't make a habit of deliberately abusing users and I try to be
> helpful. But whether I want to or not, I simply *don't* *have*
> *time* to educate every user about every aspect of the Debian system.
> All I have time to do is provide the information that I think is
> relevant to their problem and hope that they'll ask for more details
> if they need them. This doesn't work if they disappear because they
> think I'm holding back information for some perverse reason.
>
>
> You said later that I said "it's not our fault and here's why". If
> that's the case, I failed in communicating my point. Of course it's
> my fault when I screw up. And of course you can find a few people
> who have had negative interactions with developers, because we all
> screw up sometimes. (and there are probably a few developers who
> really are unpleasant to deal with) I'm not disputing whose fault it
> is, I'm saying that unless [0] we create a support department and
> have people whose full-time, paid job is to be nice and helpful to
> users, developers will occasionally make these sorts of mistakes. I
> don't think it's fair to take a few examples of less-than-stellar
> emails from developers and hold them up as grounds for condemning the
> individuals involved, let alone the entire project. The
> practicalities of the situation mean that we all need to be a little
> forgiving here for things to work.
>
> That may not have been your intent, but I hope that this time I at
> least made myself clear. :-)
Okay. Point made. I should be clear I'm talking about ONE reply in the
example and that it could have been written at 3 am after a bad day.
I'm leaving out what I used to have to do all the time when teaching in
residential: Make it clear I'm talking about a particular behavior and
that it may or may not be at all typical of the person involved. I've
gotten out of the habit (after leaving teaching) of making sure I
focused on the behavior.
That also touches on the reason that I do NOT want to bring up something
like that when it involves a person who is not a member of the forum
where the discussion is happening. I was not the one who brought it up
as an example. My original point is that I don't file bug reports with
FOSS because I've had some indifferent and even hostile replies. As
I've said, there are reasons that I usually file bug reports under a
legal alias and why I used to be on mailing lists using the same aka.
It's a long story, but it's not that I'm up to anything shady.
Overall, I used to file bug reports, back when I first started working
with FOSS, sometime in the late 1990s, but gave up on it for the
reasons I mentioned. That this particular one is dated 2006 tells me
it's one I filed when I had already given up, for the most part, on
filing them.
> [0] and even if we had a paid support department, that would only
> reduce the problem, not eliminate it.
>
> > One other point: You mention you spent an hour on this reply. What
> > was the intent? I made a point: The responses of some DDs
> > encourage people to stop filing bug reports. That's the point
> > under discussion with one report as an example. Some people said
> > it's not at all true, but others have said that in their experience
> > it is true. That others, not many, but some, have had the same
> > problem and don't bother with bug reports anymore, is a clear
> > indication that there is something to what I'm saying.
>
> The intent was mainly to defend Christian from the unwarranted
> attacks on his character that I thought (perhaps wrongly) were flying
> around this list. A secondary goal was to suggest that assumptions
> of good faith are essential to keep our social interactions
> well-lubricated. Clearly I have failed miserably at both. I hope
> that this email is a little clearer.
And I should have been clear the focus was on ONE reply, not on
Christian. Honestly, I started my business when I couldn't even afford
to buy the tech books I needed for it. I had to go to relatives, like
a kid with his eyes downcast, asking for money for reference books. I
could not have started my business without FOSS. I could have switched
over to proprietary systems several years ago if I had wanted to, but
decided I'd rather spend the money on a convertible than the thousands
it would have taken to replace all my FOSS software with stuff for
Windows.
I know what it's like to work day and night, squashing bugs and trying
to get something ready and working. I have the utmost respect for what
FOSS developers do and what they have created, including the Debian
distro, which, unlike some, is not and never has been, sold for a
profit.
So, while I stopped filing bug reports, that does not mean I don't
admire FOSS developers and what they've done. It's like a friend of
mine who is a great guy but if we start playing Monopoly, he gets nasty
and competes in just the worst way. While I think a lot of him, I've
just learned NOT to interact with him when a Monopoly board is nearby.
For the same reason, due to my experience, I don't file bug reports.
One of the reasons I get so ticked on this issue is because I know it's
a point that, if people focused on it, would help everyone in the FOSS
world.
Hal
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