Re: Idea of a Debian Mascot [Was: FW: Bits from the DPL: FTP assistants, marketing team, init scripts, elections]
On Thursday 28 February 2008, Rich Healey wrote:
> Hal Vaughan wrote:
> > On Wednesday 27 February 2008, Rich Healey wrote:
> > ...
> >> Many of my windows using mates are at least familiar with Tux,
> >> even though many have only ever used linux at my place (and then
> >> only using firefox to check email, hardly the grandest most eye
> >> opening event).
> > Debian is not aimed at the same audiences as those distros. If it
> > were, then there'd be no need for those other distros.
> >> Debian could use an image revamp, last night i was messing with a
> >> debian install disk trying to get driver information for a NIC in
> >> my solaris machine, and honestly even with the (non-default) GUI,
> >> it's hardly impressive.
> > There is a revamped image with a new logo and an easy to use GUI
> > installer one can use if Debian is an issue. It's a fairly large
> > project. Here's a link to it:
> > http://ubuntu.com.
> > (I notice, when checking that home page that it seems like it's
> > been taken over by Dell.)
> >> Projects like mandriva have much prettier, and more intuitive
> >> installers. Debian is incredibly fast and efficient, and fantastic
> >> for experienced unix admins, but not their exclusive domain, more
> >> publicity can never be a bad thing.
> > I use the Net Install. Last time I checked, I can do a complete
> > install, without X, in about 20-25 minutes on a server and don't
> > have to mess with any extras.
> > I LOVE user friendliness. It's a MUST for me with my workstation.
> > When I'm writing screenplays, I need to be able to have my computer
> > do what I want without thinking about how to use the tools so I can
> > think about my writing.
> > However, Debian is not designed for that market. It's designed for
> > servers and people that want stable systems. I figure by the time
> > a Debian Stable version is issued, the software in it has been
> > tested for longer and by more people than just about anything out
> > there. As cliche as it sounds, I know I actually get more and
> > better sleep at night because my servers are running Debian. I
> > know I don't have to check over them and babysit them. There is no
> > other distro I'd trust as much for long term stability as I do
> > Debian.
> > If you want a friendly GUI and a nifty and easy install, go for
> > another distro. There's a reason there's so many distros out there
> > and it's too much to ask for one distro to try to hit more than one
> > or two focused markets.
> > And if we have to have a mascot, maybe we can just go with I-Chaya.
> > Hal
> My honest opinion is that you're clinging to *n*x as something that's
> hard, this elitist view is something that's taking time to change
> (and i'll admit, i kinda like the idea that using linux is not
> something anyone can do... good thing i've still got my BSD boxen to
> be pretentious with ;) ).
Actually, no, I'm not. Read my comment about when I'm writing
screenplays for an example. It's the same when I'm doing graphic work
or video editing. The first time I ever tried Debian (under 2.2),
every question I asked or every statement I made regarding user
friendliness seemed to result in heavy criticism. I have always pushed
for user-friendliness and for making Linux more accessible. I did some
serious bitching, pissing, and moaning with developers of some programs
when they refused to make a change because they saw no reason to make a
program easier to use.
What has changed is realizing the wide variety of distros gives us
choice. I use Kubuntu on my workstation because it's easier to install
and has the latest in the bells and whistles, which means that there is
often a difference in usability. I tend to operate in two different
modes. If I'm programming, I love Konsole and if I'm not programming
in Java, I use Kate because it's simple. If I'm doing creative work, I
need a program that makes me think as little as possible. One time I
wrote a 180 page script in 3 weeks that, according to a friend,
contained 24 separate subplots. When I'm working on something like
that, I can't think about what I need to press to change the margin or
to, in any other way, stop thinking about my storyline and take time to
think about how to make the word processor do something.
I want to see Linux improve in ease of use. From what I see, it's just
as easy to use in most cases as anything out of Redmond, the difference
being you usually have to install Linux on your computer and that is
usually not the case with most people that run Redmond's garbage.
On the other hand, Debian was never made to be an easy to use distro.
It was designed to keep servers stable. Not to be the first or even
second distro a new Linuxer tries out.
> Debian IS NOT something that an utter newbie to linux can't use, nor
> should it be.
> I don't think that just because our distro is not specifically aimed
> at those who are new doesn't mean it can't have a few creature
> comforts. I think i can manage typing menuinstall, or netinstall at
> the bootCD's grub menu.
> Debian is a great distro, and i'm an advocate of making it possible
> for the most number of people possible to use it.
I'd rather the same effort be put into the things that give Debian its
uniqueness in the first place. Maybe I'm a snob on the
sysadmin/programmer end of things, but if someone has a reason to need
Debian instead of Ubuntu, if they find the current install without a
fancy GUI tough to use, then I seriously doubt they are advanced enough
to be using Debian. In that case, they can try many other distros.
It's not a snob thing, it's what's appropriate. There's no reason to
make Debian more user friendly when *buntu's got that covered. Let
Debian continue with the focus on stability and thorough testing.