Re: Outsider's observation upon the pros and cons of Debian
Hi Mike
Debian (IMHO) is a great distribution for and rock solid servers and for
people who are prepared to climb a fairly steep learning curve to run
sid/etch. Later hardware requires newer software than sarge in many
instances. And whilst sarge runs out of the box to a great extent
understanding configuration issues is often a requirement.
Personally, I'd recommend Ubuntu to someone who is looking for a better
experience than running windows, unless they are keen to 'learn' Debian.
As far as the list goes, I've found it invaluable over the three years
I've been learning Debian. There is an expectation that you search the
archives for information; many questions on the list could be answered
from the archives. That said, most people on the list are pretty
tolerant and give helpful answers.
I can't remember what your suggestions were but there have been many for
a newbie list and yours may have been one of those. I'm not going to
rehearse the arguments against but am satisfied that they are
convincing.
That people may seem unhelpful, pre-supposes that Debian
has goal of expanding the user base; that the user base expands is a by-
product of the quality of the software, which is the primary goal of the
development community.
The Debian project does adapt and develop but there are systems and
structures in place to ensure maximum support for the direction in which
the project goes.
Developers and maintainers are key to this process but anyone can
join the effort to help the development. We are the fortunate
beneficiaries of the Debian project as are Ubuntu, Knoppix and many
other derivative distros.
You may get flamed for your post but many will sympathise; all I can say
is that although the tone of the response you received, may have been
harsh, the advice was sound.
Regards
Clive
On (12/03/06 13:21), Mike McCarty wrote:
> I have endeavored to maintain a helpful tone in this message.
> Please forgive me where I may have failed. As more-or-less an
> outsider here, I have an observation to make concerning the Debian
> distribution, and considerations which might motivate people whether
> to chose to use Debian. I hope I am not speaking out of turn.
> I hope to encourage introspection. If you choose to read this
> message (it's rather long, I'm afraid), then I ask that you
> not respond until after reading all of it, and encourage you
> to endeavor to maintain a measured tone.
>
> On a small number of occasions, I have proposed what appeared to me
> to be relatively minor modifications to the policies of this mail
> list. Each of these has been met by the existence of two already-
> formed factions each arguing either for or against my proposal.
>
> In each case, the intensity and acrimony expressed by each faction
> has increased until the thread wasn't worth reading, let alone
> contributing to. Eventually, list administration got involved,
> expressing a hard-line attitude that the users don't get consideration.
>
> Here is an actual quote[1] from a list admin...
>
> >Nothing is going to change, so if you aren't happy with the setup of
> >debian-user then it probably isn't the list for you and you should
> >consider unsubscribing.
>
> It seems that there are the right way, the wrong way, and the Debian
> way of doing things.
>
> Not what I consider to be the friendliest of responses, and not the
> first time I've seen it.
>
> Instead of trying to see whether some compromise might be worked out,
> or perhaps making an alternate change which might better suit the goals
> of the list while giving the user the same or similar results as the
> proposal would, or even expressing appreciation for the contribution,
> but regretfully stating that no accomodation is possible, so one who
> disagrees must grin and bear it, but please to stay, people are
> encouraged to leave.
>
> Usually, finding compromises is something which requires intelligence,
> open-mindedness, effort, and imagination. It isn't easy. Telling
> people that they are wrong-headed and to leave takes none of that,
> and I suppose that the list admins are so busy that they haven't the
> time necessary to exercise intelligence, open-mindedness, effort, and
> imagination.
>
> I'm not going to propose a change in list policy from one
>
> that the admins have already considered all
> circumstances and those who can't stand the
> heat in the kitchen should just get out
>
> to one
>
> that the admins actually listen to their users,
>
> as that probably would start yet another acrimonious debate.
>
> I will comment that I'm not really a Debian user, but joined
> because I talked my girlfriend into leaving Windows XP and
> trying Linux again. Several years ago, we both tried Linux
> and found it unsatisfactory. Somewhat over a year ago I landed a
> contract where I was required to use a specific Linux distribution
> which shall remain unnamed. I found that Linux has changed
> considerably, and is much nicer to use.
>
> Upon my recommendation, she agreed to use a few LiveCD distros.
> I burned her several (like seven or so) and she settled upon
> Knoppix as being the best for her. I recommended against
> installing Knoppix, but using Debian, as being more stable.
> So she installed Debian upon my recommendation, and I subscribed
> here for purposes of helping her adminster her machine.
>
> I'm not all that enamored of the distribution I'm using, and
> have been pondering changing to another, and considering
> the pros and cons of various other distributions, Debian
> being one of those under consideration.
>
> One of the pros of Debian is that I'd only have to become
> more-or-less expert in one distribution.
>
> I'd say that one of the cons to Debian is the way this list
> is administered. To put it another way, the quote above
> translates in my mind into
>
> "Nothing is going to change, so if you aren't happy with the
> setup of debian-user then Debian probably isn't the distro
> for you, and you should consider using a different one."
>
> It certainly has encouraged me to give Scientific Linux
> another thought.
>
> Since the means of support from experts is the list, the
> distribution and the list are inseparable in my mind.
> Also, people usually carry attitudes into every circumstance
> of life, and I suppose that this same attitude would meet
> proposals to changes in how the distribution itself is
> managed.
>
> I hope that helps some here understand how others see the list
> and the Debian distribution a little more clearly, and perhaps
> appreciate a little more what considerations enter into what
> makes any given distribution the one of choice for those who
> are considering which, if any, version of Linux to use.
>
> [1] I have deliberately made a point not to know who made
> that comment. I'm not interested in personalities, I'm
> interested in the list and the distribution. I hope that
> this message does not spawn a flame war, but rather
> encourages introspection. I encourage other parties not
> to get involved in further exchanges unless they strive
> to maintain an even tone. I'm also not trying to get my
> way on any particular proposal.
>
> Mike
> --
> p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> This message made from 100% recycled bits.
> You have found the bank of Larn.
> I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
> I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
>
>
> --
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> listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
--
www.clivemenzies.co.uk ...
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