Re: FAQ on debian newcomer list
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 01:50:52 -0500
Hal Vaughan <hal@thresholddigital.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 11 January 2006 01:39 am, David Kirchner wrote:
> > On 1/10/06, kamaraju kusumanchi <raju.mailinglists@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I would appreciate any feedback/corrections/suggestions etc., (however
> > > trivial you think they are) on the following FAQ on debian-user. The
> > > final corrected version will be uploaded to
> > > http://people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/du-guidelines.html . I am posting
> > > the initial version for your kind consideration.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance
> > > raju
Raju, love it.
> >
> > I think there should also be something addressing the underlying
> > problem(s). It seems to me that the main reason people want a
> > debian-newcomers list is because they don't want to see so many newbie
> > questions come along on this list. The actual problem is that the
> > system is not quite newbie-proof.
>
> I think that's a good point. This list is not a good place for a newbie.
> While there are a lot of helpful people here, there are some intolerant or
> overly literally minded people who feel everyone should think like they do
> and can be quite abrupt and even nasty to people that ask questions they, as
> a Debian admin with years of experience, consider dumb.
I agree, that oftentimes this list is not a good place for newbies, though I don't think its malicious or intentional. Those more intolerant people of whom you speak should realise one simple thing -- every newbie that is shown the way is one more user to field those newbie questions. Thus these folks can ensure their own reduced annoyance by teaching others.
>
> I see this as just a symptom of the larger problem you see everywhere in the
> world: intolerance of those who think differently, may have different skill
> sets, or may need different (or more) help than others do.
sad but true.
>
> But the idea of a newbie-proof system reveals a nasty prejudice against those
> wanting to get involved and to learn, but don't have the skills yet.
[WARNING! utopian rant follows]
IMO, the world is too full of people who don't understand what their computers do, how they work etc. This is a symptom of proprietary OSes dumbing down the system to increase market penetration. Computers are everywhere in our world and it's going to stay that way. People need to have a better understanding of how they work and how to utilise them as tools.
An OS like Debian is not only a fantastic tool for users but also a fantastic teaching medium. In order to get the most out of a tool like Debian one must learn about that tool. Its a good thing (tm). Having said that, getting people over that first hump and into a working system is paramount.
The reality is, I think, that the help one gets in surmounting that first hurdle of booting successfully into a useable environment doen't really improve one's understanding of the system. Later, when configuring, tweaking, and using the system is when the real understanding begins to develop.
It is incumbent on those who know how to use the system to help others get a system they can use so that they can begin to learn.
[end]
>
> Maybe the solution would be not to create a debian-newbie list, but to create
> a debian-advanced-user list, so those that are going to be judgemental or
> ugly to newbies can stay on that list. Just the name would be enough to
> discourage most newbies from trying that list, whether the focus was on only
> really advanced topics or not.
I disagree with this for reasons stated above and as others have said, fragmentation is a problem. Further there already exist "advanced" lists. They're usually tagged -dev or -devel. If your problem can't be solved on -user, then its logical that you need developer help.
>
> My personal belief is that it is important for any group to welcome newcomers
> and willingly help them get used to the groups ways and styles, otherwise the
> group won't grow, but will shrink through attrition.
yup
>
> > We, the experienced, ought to try and improve the processes and the
> > documentation, which would lead to less newbie frustration.
yup
A
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