Re: PCI graphics cards recommendations
On Sun, Feb 16, 2003 at 04:41:13PM +1300, Haralambos Geortgilakis wrote:
>
> Hi All & Nathan,
>
> who typed....
>
> <snip>
>
> >On Sun, Feb 16, 2003 at 01:31:01PM +1300, Haralambos Geortgilakis wrote:
> >
> >
> >>"Mr Powell said he was representing "the newest country and the oldest
> >>democracy","-Apparently Mr Powell is not aware of the Hellenic/Greek
> >>Democray, dated around 300 BCE; when "we" coined the term. His grasp of
^^^^^^^^
democracy; "apt-get install ispell"
> >>history, is as poor as his American argument for a war, against Iraq. --GG
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I recently heard a term for this kind of political attack: "drive-by
> >political commentary".
> >
> >I think it's fairly obvious that Mr. Powell meant the United States is
> >the world's oldest _active_ democracy as it's been in existence since
> >1787 or 1789 depending on whether you consider the current government
> >to begin with the signing of the Constitution or the first election of
> >a president. Your argument is rather like claiming that the Guiness
> >Book of World records is incorrect when it names the "oldest living
> >human" since the Bible says Methuselah lived to the age of 969. Of
> >course, if you have evidence that Greece has been under a democratic
> >government since 300 BC, I'm sure many historians would be ecstatic to
> >hear your evidence.
> >
> >Have a nice day.
> >
> <snip>
>
> "Drive-bye?" Why of course, just like "Bowling for Columbine," and the
> American obsession with gun-culture? No. Of course political argument is
> older than that. Have a look at some "Old Europe" texts, like Aristotle,
> Plato or Aristophanes.
>
> It is a shame, that your (the American) gun laws are so loose; 11,000
> Americans being shot dead every year. You guys have a weird notion of
> "freedom." I would recommend the above movie, "Bowling for Columbine."
Michael Moore, right? He doesn't have an axe to grind ...
> If more of you guys voted (less than 50%, nearer to 40%?), then maybe
> your obsession with guns would end????
Say, you're quite adept at non-sequiters! That was obvious given your
initial fallacious argument, but more evidence never hurts. I fail to
see what the right to bear arms has to do with this discussion, but
thank you for baring your bias.
The reason it's a "drive-by" is because you insert political diatribe
into a conversation where it was absent. This seems to be a favorite
tactic of the political left (though I'm sure you can find examples
from the other side). It's the conversational equivalent of the
30-second sound-bite, something abhorrent to politics and knowledge in
general.
The reason voter turnout hovers around 40% is because the other 60%
can't be troubled to take the time to educate themselves on what is
going on. Personally, I am glad these people don't vote; the American
founding fathers desired an "informed electorate". Uninformed voters
are not unlike guns with irresponsible owners, to borrow from your
bizarre analogy.
> A claim that the American democracy is the longest active democracy,
> would seem to ignore black people, indigenous Americans and women? An
> odd position for Powell to take, indeed an absurd one. No Nathan, if you
> mean democracy in the modern sense of it, America is not the oldest.
> Clearly, some Americans believe it, but they would be wrong.
Democracy is a word. Words mean things. We're arguing about
something Colin Powell said, not something I said. If you have a tape
of me stating that the United States is the world's oldest democracy,
please bring it forth. Otherwise, I suggest you not attribute
statements to me until I've said them.
Regarding your other points, do you claim that the ancient Greeks did
not keep slaves? Did they allow their slaves a vote? Did the citizens
of Sparta get a vote? Isn't it a fact that Socrates and Plato
despised the democratic government?
> Your strawman argument, in regards the oldest living person, is cute,
> but false.
It's not a straw man argument at all; It's an analogy to point out the
fallaciousness of your argument. Let's try another way: You assert a
"fact" which is not in fact true, nor is it relevant. Yet you then
draw a "conclusion" based on this "fact".
> Nor did I make the claim, that the Ancient Hellenic Democracy, has been
> around since 300 BCE, so again your strawman argument is false. Are you
> aware, that The CIA helped undermine the Greek Democracy in 1967 and
> replaced it with a dictatorship? I think that is what you might call an
> own goal?
Ah, but you did use the existence of the "Ancient Hellenic Democracy"
as "proof" that Colin Powell does not understand history. Either you
meant that Colin Powell didn't know that no-one had attempted a
democratic government before the formation of the United States, or
you meant that the "Ancient Hellenic Democracy" is still in
existence, or you claim that the United States is not a democracy at
all. If that is your claim (as it appears to be), then trotting forth
the "Ancient Hellenic Democracy" serves no purpose and is superfluous.
I tried pointing this out to you twice now.
Personally, I know for a fact that the United States is not a
democracy; it's a representative republic where the representatives
are (purportedly) elected in a democratic fashion. It drives me crazy
when people say the United States is a "democracy"; the only
democracies I am aware of today are Iceland and Switzerland (and
there's some question if the recent changes to the Swiss constitution
leave the Swiss democracy intact).
I am aware that the United States has done all kinds of things using
various agencies; I don't think I ever attempted to defend that.
Welcome to international politics, where everyone is the bad guy.
> President Johnson summoned the Greek ambasidor..."fuck your Parliament
^^^^^^^^^
ambassador; "apt-get install ispell"
Please direct further replies _off list_.
--
Nathan Norman - Incanus Networking mailto:nnorman@incanus.net
I must despise the world which does not know that music is a
higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
-- Ludwig van Beethoven
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