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Re: Why is PPP so screwed up!?!?!

>thats intuitive....

Why can't you guys give it up!  ITs not a Debian thing dude!  Its
compiled into the kernel itself (ppp support).  It is NOT a Debian
issue!  I do agree that someone (how about you?) could make it
better by writing something, from your perspective that might 
DISTRIBUTION!  If you want to see more of it, monitor the FreeBSD
questions forum sometime!  FreeBSD supports two (different) ways
of invoking PPP to establish a net link.   If you want to do some 
serious whinning about it, try FreeBSD!  Now, quit the bitchin' and
get busy putting your ideas down so it will benefit everyone else.
Thats the idea here.  You guys been bantering this back and forth
for over a week now.  All the whinin' and cryin' won't make a damn
bit of difference.  So, knock it off, and put your energy to good use.
Or, go somewhere else and bitch.

>>Second, why should someone have to "cat /usr/bin/pon" to find out to
>>edit /etc/ppp.chatscript anyway? I mean, I have to say that the Debian
>>installation routine is so simple it's silly. So why doesn't it just go
>>that one extra yard and ask a simple question like "Will this system be
>>connected to the net via a PPP connection?" and then let me specify
>>which com port and what the dialup number/login-id/password are? Even the 
>>people who claim that "ppp was a breeze" admit that they had to hunt
>>around a little before they found the right files to edit (either that or
>>they cheated and asked a friend). 
>>It's silly. There's no mention in the installation guide that ppp is even
>>included in the base system, or that someone with only dial-in access
>>to the net can use ppp with dselect's ftp method to add new packages. 
>>Instead, you get tossed into dselect without even being given the chance 
>>to get ppp going for the first time (even if you *did* know the files
>>to edit). Now *that's* intuitive.
>>Don't get me wrong, Debian is great and it's got some really cool features,
>>but those features are not made apparent to a newcomer to the distribution.
>>Here's an example. A buddy of mine in San Francisco recently e-mailed me
>>that he had just installed Debian (his first Linux) and that he needed to
>>know how to read a DOS floppy because he had used Win95 to download some
>>tar'd and gzip'd msql source or whatnot and wanted to copy it onto the
>>Debian machine.
>>I explained to him the Debian packaging system (which he hadn't been made
>>aware of in the docs he read or the install program)... and how he should
>>go get the .deb files.... and that, when he's feeling brave, he should
>>get ppp going and use dselect. So, he went and ftp'd (with Win95) some
>>deb's and copied them over to the Debian machine and used dpkg to install
>>them. Then, he got gcc and was stuck because it was bigger than a 1.44M.
>>So, I told him that it was time for the "rite of passage", that he was
>>going to have to go with ppp and dselect (which, again, he was not made
>>aware of). It took about 3-4 days of e-mails before I got a message from
>>him with the subject "I'M ACTUALLY DOWNLOADING WITH DSELECT!!!!!".
>>The ordeal shouldn't be such that it would cause him to act like he had
>>won the lottery. I guess my point is that Debian is not doing a good job 
>>at embracing the "first-time linuxer" and probably even the "first-time
>>Debian linuxer". As a result, Debian is THE thing to be running as long
>>as you've got a friend who has installed it before who will help 
>>point you in the right direction.
>>And it doesn't have to be that way. I'd be glad to help... but in order to,
>>I need at least SOME indication from others that they agree there's a 
>>problem here. Up until now, all I've heard is denial.
>>- Joe

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