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Bug#652631: www.debian.org: please clarify the distinction between 'events@d.o' and 'debian-events-*@lists.d.o'



Package: www.debian.org
Severity: important
User: events@debian.org
Usertags: events-announce

Hi there!

The discussion started at [1].  Cc: debian-publicity@, which is where
the Events team (Cc:ed) discussion should he held.  Feel free to
continue there, but please keep the BTS in the loop.

[1] <http://lists.debian.org/20111218120322.GB2354@anhrefn.saar.de>

I decided to report this as a bug because the result of this discussion
should end up in the Events "admin" page [2], which, as a side note,
does not even show the debian-events-*@ mailing lists.

[2] <http://www.debian.org/events/admin>

Axel, I re-ordered your text to reply in a single place to all of you.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:50:05 +0100, Axel Beckert wrote:
> Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
>> On 12/18/2011 01:03 PM, Arne Wichmann wrote:
>> > A late reply - I am a bit delayed for non-urgent tasks at the moment.

Thank you for the follow-up.  I would have preferred a reply to my
original email you referred to [6], but this is my maniacal side ;-)

>> > begin  quotation  from Luca Capello (in <877h2jm9bv.fsf@gismo.pca.it>):
>> >> As a final side note: as announced in the past, feel free to contact the
>> >> Debian Events team for any question like this one.  While we monitor the
>> >> debian-events-*@ mailing lists, in no way these should be the central
>> >> point for anything event-related:

The quotation is from [3], but it could also be from [4] or [5].

[3] <http://lists.debian.org/877h2jm9bv.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
[4] <http://lists.debian.org/87ehwrnos8.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
[5] <http://lists.debian.org/87vcq3hxep.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

>> >>   <http://lists.debian.org/87tyg2g6ed.fsf@gismo.pca.it>
>
> Gives a 404 for me. Nevertheless I can imagine what's in there.

It works here, the (current) non-MID link is [6].

[6] <http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2011/02/msg00006.html>

>> > I do not like the way things are handled in that mail. I do not feel that
>> > centralization is a good idea for event handling, but this is what is being
>> > done: events@debian.org is an interface in which I as non-DD can not
>> > participate in. http://wiki.debian.org/CategoryEvents is global and very
>> > unsorted and not very usable to alert me to what is happening.

Were your feelings also influenced but how the CeBIT 2012 booth is being
organized [7]?  This was the first time the Events team was contacted by
the organizers of an event, in a non-English language, so I am for any
improvements in the workflow I followed [4].

[7] <http://lists.debian.org/874nx0n9zh.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

>> > debian-events-eu@lists.debian.org is low-traffic and not moderated - I can
>> > follow what is happening there, and take part without relying on a
>> > centralized team. Any mechanism which replaces it should at least have
>> > these qualities. 
>> 
>> Strong ack. Organizing events should not be happening behind the scenes.
>
> Seconded.

And what Axel wrote before:

> I still disagree. IMHO that's _exactly_ what these lists should be and
> are. Events are local stuff and they should be handled mostly locally,
> not globally.
>
> I think it's a good idea to have central place to contact in case
> local event teams need physical resources or resources outside the
> wiki and the mailing lists, but nevertheless the organization and
> announcements should primarily be local.

I structured my reply on points, it should be easier to reply.

a) there is no Events cabal ;-)

b) at least for those who have access to Debian machines nothing is
   happening behind the scene, given that 'events@d.o' is archived on
   master [8].

[8] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/README?revision=1.8&view=markup>

c) I do not consider *any* wiki as official documentation, which means
   that the wikipage Arne referred to [9] should not be used as such.

[9] <http://wiki.debian.org/CategoryEvents>

d) I think there is a misunderstanding of what I wrote at [6], here the
   extract of my words:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Submitting an event
===================

This is the easiest part: whenever you know of any event Debian is
present, simply send an email in English to <events@debian.org> [15].
We will then do all the necessary steps to find someone willing to
participate/coordinate the Debian presence and announce the event to the
appropriate debian-events-* mailing lists [16][17][18][19], if not
already done.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

   As far as I read the text above, the Events team *does* not organize
   an event, instead it will (or it should or, if you prefer, I think it
   should):

   1. receive notice of an event Debian will take part in.
   2. if not already present, find the main responsible for that event
      (we request that for the entry in the event page [10][11]).
   3. add the event to the event page [11].
   4. if not already done, announce the event to the (language/region-
      specific) debian-events-*@ mailing list, so the *official* event
      page at [11] can be used.

[10] <http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/webwml/webwml/english/events/event.form?revision=1.10&view=markup>
[11] <http://www.debian.org/events>

   I still fail to see why/how you think that the Events team wants to
   centralize how events are managed, while we try to publicize as
   much/best as possible the highest number of events *through* official
   channels.

   At DebConf11, during the Events BoF [12] this topic was discussed
   again and I thought what I summarized in the report [13] was the
   consensus drawn from the discussion, let me quote my words:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
First, for the mailing list, the idea would be to still use the
already-established debian-events-$SOMETHING [13] mailing list for
coordination, with a "new" mailing list for announcement only (both
minor and major events).  This should be a restricted-posting mailing
list (probably Events and Press membership only): its aim is to provide
email notifications whenever a new event is added to the website.  A
parallel approach would be to duplicate the announcements on Planet
Debian, but these points must be coordinated with the Publicity team.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

[12] <http://penta.debconf.org/dc11_schedule/events/731.en.html>
[13] <http://lists.debian.org/87fwlbctds.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

   The Events team has not started yet to use debian-news@ as the
   "general" mailing list for *all* announcements [14], but from the
   extract above it seems clear to me that in case Debian will gain
   other *official* channels, we will use them (e.g. blog.d.o).

[14] <http://bugs.debian.org/643647>

> And I'm still wondering if a German-speaking debian-events-de@l.d.o
> list (like the Dutch speaking debian-events-nl@l.d.o) wouldn't be a
> good idea either.

From an announcement POV, yet another mailing list would be a pain,
because this means that the Events team, *if not notified*, will miss
more events.  Just to provide an example: Debian will be present at the
forthcoming 28C3 [15], but no one told the Events team about that,
except Paul Wise last Saturday via IRC [16] (FYI he is acting as a proxy
for us since a while).

[15] <http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEventsDe/2011/28C3>
[16] <irc://irc.oftc.net/debian-events>

From a coordination POV, given that as Arne wrote debian-events-eu@ is
low-traffic, I still think too much fragmentation is worthless and it
will keep away contributors.  Again, just to provide an example: I do
not speak German, but I was happy to help for the Debian booth at the
Chemnitzer Linux-Tage 2011 [16].  This because everything was done
through debian-events-eu@ and not a localized mailing list.

[16] <http://lists.debian.org/87bp0rxlwq.fsf@gismo.pca.it>

> (Cc to events@d.o, so that they are aware of this discussion in case
> they really don't follow debian-events-eu@l.d.o closely enough.)

Thank you Axel, the *latter* is the problem: ATM the Events team has to
monitor various channels (IRC, mailing lists and planets, even
non-Debian [17]) to be aware of events, while as I see it it should be
the other way around.

[17] <http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20111210.235459.a8d46a5b.en.html>

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca

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