On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 11:40:41AM +0100, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote: > Am 23.03.2022 um 09:03 schrieb Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de>: > > >> So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still > >> allowed here. > [...] > > I consider large parts of Debian to be a toxic environment to me, where > > I always have to fear being attacked for just expressing my point of > > view. And I disagree with double standards. Some may express their point > > of view without being attacked, others may not. Regardless of whether > > their language is respectful or not. At least that has been my > > experience in the last years. > > Same over here. I also think that Debian as a project has become very toxic. > > It became exactly what it tried to prevent by all those initiatives > that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc. > > I see many old DDs became inactive or stepped down as a DD in the past > years, yet not many new DDs joining or being as active as the old DDs > been in the past. But this could also a misinterpretation of mine. It is a misinterpretation. I scrapped the data from https://nm.debian.org/public/people/, removed the rows with "(unknown)" in the "Since" column and the ones where "Account Name" is "None chosen yet". The number of people joining the project is not actually decreasing in the last 10 years. In fact, the data seems to display a growth trend since ... all those initiatives that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc?¹ 2000 65 ████████████████████▏ 2001 104 ████████████████████████████████▏ 2002 54 ████████████████▊ 2003 109 █████████████████████████████████▊ 2004 57 █████████████████▋ 2005 62 ███████████████████▎ 2006 59 ██████████████████▎ 2007 71 ██████████████████████ 2008 118 ████████████████████████████████████▌ 2009 109 █████████████████████████████████▊ 2010 155 ███████████████████████████████████████████████▉ 2011 40 ████████████▍ 2012 121 █████████████████████████████████████▍ 2013 64 ███████████████████▉ 2014 87 ██████████████████████████▉ 2015 75 ███████████████████████▎ 2016 107 █████████████████████████████████▏ 2017 162 ██████████████████████████████████████████████████ 2018 128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋ 2019 107 █████████████████████████████████▏ 2020 99 ██████████████████████████████▋ 2021 128 ███████████████████████████████████████▋ 2022 17 █████ ¹ of course correlation is not causation, I am not saying the perceived growth is happening *because* of the CoC etc. > Mailing lists seem to be really quiet compared to older times, traffic > on IRC is also far less traffic than it used to be. Maybe > communication shifted to other media or maybe DDs are more silent > because they fear to be punished in some way or another for what they > say. I see that being thrown around a lot, yet nobody has never received any real sanction in the project for giving their opinion on a topic, but for attacking, insulting, or hurting people, being told that was the case, and the insisting in the same behavior, with that cycle repeating itself a few times.
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