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Re: Asking for Calm

Sam Hartman - 01.01.20, 15:59:31 CET:
> >>>>> "Martin" == Martin Steigerwald <martin@lichtvoll.de> writes:
>     Martin> Dear Sam.
>     Martin> Sam Hartman - 31.12.19, 15:37:09 CET:
>     >> folks, emotions are very high at the moment.  It would really
>     >> help if
>     >> you could let the discussion die down.  If there are issues
>     >> that you
>     >> need to address, please reach out to da-manager, the
>     >> listmaster, DPL,
>     >> the community team, or anyone else who you think will hear you
>     >> and
>     >> give you the help you're looking for.
>     Martin> […]
>     >> We want to hear people even when they are very upset. 
>     >> Similarly, we
>     >> don't want people to be provoked into being so upset that they
>     >> cannot
>     >> be heard.
>     Martin> How does that go together, Sam?
> I think there is a time and a place for everything.
> Sometimes, when people are really upset, it is hard for them to
> constructively hear something.
> Sometimes when they are upset it is hard to connect with empathy and
> in your terms mutuality.
> And so taking some space in time can gain the distance we're going to
> need to hear each other later.

Okay, I can go with that. 

> And yet, even at those times, some issues need to be dealt with
> urgently.
> If you feel there is something not right going on and you need help
> with it, I'm trying to give some options that allow you to reach out
> without escalating emotions here on the list.

My point is here is that the GR started in the public, has been 
discussed in the public, has been a public election, yet I felt you 
suggested that what happened after the voting conduction should be moved 
to private space. This did not feel right to me.

>     Martin> How is going to say "I feel hurt about the outcome of the
> GR" – Martin> personally I am not even sure whether I do – or "I
> think the GR did not Martin> serve the highest good of Debian" or
> something like that which is Martin> *respectful* and within the
> bounds of Code of Conduct, suddenly not Martin> acceptable anymore?
> I'd like to be heard differently.
> My focus was not intended to be on the GR so much as the thread about
> diversity and the CoC and things that happened on that thread.

Ah, I see. I did not get that. Your post did not state what it relates 

I read quite some of that discussion, however I felt scared to write 
even a single mail on those topics. I felt that it would be way too easy 
to be writing something that would hurt someone or would be 
misunderstood – even tough it may just be due to a lack of 
understanding. Especially as I had only rare contacts with transgender 
people, or people with a sexual identity as just male or female. On the 
other hand I feel I am not "just" male as well, so… and I read more than 
once and felt more than once that sexual identity can be fluid. I 
certainly agree with using the pronoun someone likes to be addressed 

Related to diversity and CoC discussions I have no opinion about your 
suggestion. I dropped reading them as I found it hard to endure, cause 
from what I saw they contained a lot of accusations. I consider myself 
to be incarnated into a highly sensitive person, so I think I better am 
careful. You may very well have had a point to make here. I agree that 
on heated discussions especially when language being used becomes 
violent, stepping back and welcoming the emotions on my own can be very 
helpful before I engage again.

> However, as I understand it, the GR is important to you, and now that
> we have the misunderstanding of focus out of the way, I'd be happy to
> chat about the GR.
> For the GR, I think now is a time of emotions.

We agree there then.

> I would request that you not focus on discussing whether the GR was a
> good idea or will benefit Debian at this time.  I think that people
> have strong feelings, and those feelings will get in the way of any
> analysis of those issues.

I am okay with leaving the discussion whether the GR was a good idea or 
will benefit as it. I shared my doubts but I will be very happily be 
proven otherwise. I am just very sad, that a very notable contributor to 
sysvinit already decided to leave Debian as a result of the GR. I sought 
to express that.

> I request that you consider whether the community would benefit from
> connection and understanding of these feelings more than cost-benefit
> discussions at this time.
> I think those discussions will be more successful later.
> If I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying that you are upset when
> you think about some of those discussions not happening.  You need
> open communication and are afraid/otherwise upset when you think
> about views being silenced.
> Is that a good summary of what I'm hearing?

Yes. This was not only related to your post but to other posts as well. 
I saw a tendency to what I perceived as attempts to "silence" opinions 
or discussions.

> I'd like to reassure you that I'm not trying to suggest that GR
> discussions are unacceptable.  As I've said above, I do have hopes for
> what sort of discussions we'll focus on now.  But yes, respectful
> discussions of the GR are certainly acceptable.

Thank you.

Have a wonderful new year.

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