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What do Open Source Projects need? - 2 Projects need

On 6/4/07, Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> wrote:

> Not rating this one post - that blog is usually ontopic, no need to
> remove for one post that *some* people may not like.

Dear Joerg,
when I look back to the old days on Undernet back in the late 90s
I remember that you prefered to write scripts for your bot "ganneff"
that kicked people for all possible and impossible reasons on your
little channel, instead of interacting with the visitors.
Your attitude towards people who are not your friends did not change
in all the years, only the tools you use today.

So it is not surprising me that you think my origin posting was about
likes and dislikes.

I would like to help people like you to understand my point:

A person in the situation and position like Christoph Berg should not
feel the need to deface people on his blog - or in other words - he
should not advise people to see a psychologist.

I am not one of these people who want to control what people think,
unlike those who claim they know all about people's motivations when
they express their opinions and ideas (buzzword: paddy is a troll).
Christoph Berg can think whatever he likes.
And he is free to talk to his friends about anything he likes.
But if he writes on his blog that is linked to Planet Debian he is
doing so as a debian developer with all the priviledges and positions
he has in the debian community. And about such people I have special
demands regarding proper morals and ethics.

On 6/4/07, Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> wrote:

> It's not question of opinion. It's a question of seeing how much
> trouble Sven actually caused in the community and seeing that you
> bring the topic back once Sven has been excluded from the community
> because of the trouble that he caused.

if you hold the amount of problematic situations up against a person
like Sven you are looking at the wrong end. With a proper conflict
management the first problem Sven had could have been solved in a
way so that all the other situations would have never happened.

The second important part you should try to see from a different point
of view is -

If Sven Luther was active within the Debian Project for 8 years and
one conflict between him, Frans Pop and maybe 1 or 2 other people lead
to drama, and this drama lead to more drama, etc. till his fight for
justice lead to his expulsion from the entire project ...
... then no person with a social conciousness can expect that such a
person thanks all of you in a polite fashion and never shows up again.
A machine without feelings and emotions would do that.
But Sven is a human being. And he is the only person who pays for all
this drama.

> We care about free software first and we're sick of the Sven topic.
> So drop it. And the way you introduced it was completely wrong-headed.

Maybe my introduction was not perfect.
Maybe the people who care about the SOC-CTTE thread should focus on
aspects of free software instead of trying to fix the community.
Maybe its a bad idea in general to talk about things that are poking
the right people in the right places.


> You don't get an healthy debate by fingerpointing valuable contributors.

I disagree with that.

A healthy community can take it when long term users and contributors
try to have a controversial debate about thinks that should be improved.

And I could name you quite a few topics aside from the SOC-CTTE threads,
the Dunc-Tanc drama, the mud fight against Sven etc. that clearly speak
for my point and the point of a lot of others:

The Debian Community needs a working conflict management strategy that
is not a simplified theory of Darwin "the stronger one wins".
(or the dude in the right team / with the right jobs wins)

On 6/4/07, Sam Hocevar <sam@zoy.org> wrote:

> Having spent countless hours talking to Sven before and during the
> campaign, trying to calm him down, help him ...

Sam. Please. It is very hard to reply to you without dropping the respect
that I usually have for all people who try to have a debate with me.

My problem is not that you were totally surprised to be elected.

And my problem is not that I disagree with multiple things that affect
your new role as Debian Project Leader.

But during the electoral campaign you showed a totally different face
than you do right now. And that is hard to take. I have seen your page
that used to be behind sam2007.zoy.org - of course the domain points
elsewhere now. Maybe not all people who read this mailing list remember
this page or maybe they never seen it. But it was a defacement of Sven.
And now that you are DPL you were a caring helper of Sven all of a

Heavy stuff.

> You seem to have a weird way of "not using the case of Sven Luther to
> resolve your own issues" (your words).

My issues are similar to all those people who believe that a SOC-CTTE
is urgently needed so the Debian Community finally has a professional
conflict management.

If I mix the sad situation of Sven Luther into that while there would be
alternatives, then I am sorry.

> If you have personal issues with Christoph or other developers,
> I (leader@debian.org) would be happy to listen to you, but slandering
> me certainly does not help me sympathise with your case at first sight.

My origin posting that caused your reaction did not aim to get sympathy
from the Debian Project Leader. Sympathy might help in some situations
but for me it is more important that a majority of people who are
involved with Debian directly or indirectly understand my points.

And I am unsure if Christoph has issues with me or if I have issues with
him or maybe both.

I think more than my postings under the subject "What do Open Source
Projects need?" I cant do for the moment.

Some people use this thread to change their point of view or they dont.

Some people see me as a troll or they dont.

I felt the need to contribute my humble opinion regarding a few things
that are not alright. And thats it.


Patrick Frank

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