Re: Reforming the NM process
On 25 Apr 2006, Panu Kalliokoski spake thusly:
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 08:33:02AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> Often, in free software, just getting up and doing things is far
>> more successful than trying to talk other people into doing the
> I was kind of waiting for this response :) Guess whether I have the
> possibility of maintaining a network of buildd's for 11 archs, a
> separate keyring, actions that have to be handled manually for
> transitions etc., a separate BTS and so on? To get people to use
> them? To advertise them without people thinking that I'm a
Do a buildd for one arch. Setting up a keyring is not
needed -- since you want a wide open system, use keyring.pgp.net, or
sommethimg. If you get something started, in all likelyhood people
would join in with admin time, more machines, and a buildd network.
Sure, work is ivlved in setting up and maintaining a buildd
and BTS. But htere a re alot of poor man's BTS deals out there (heck,
create a single mailing list for all bugs as starters). Some one has
to do the work, you seem to want others to do it for you.
If you concentrated a bit more one getting things done, rather
than talking about why it can't be done, and waiting for other
people, you might actually reach your goals.
> Of course, I could offer to join ftpmasters, but I guess I can't be
> trusted till I've gone through NM, can I?
Precisely. And to get trusted, it happens not just through
words -- words are cheap. Actions count for far more.
> I accept it if my suggestions are not accepted in Debian, and I
> continue to agree with the philosophy and principles of Debian even
> if my suggestion about an open-upload archive won't be met with much
> excitement. But sadly, doing this on my own is not an option for
*Shrug*. Then you get limited say in things. Seems like even
a proof of concept setup may allow someone else with more time or
resources to take the setup and run with it, but hey, someone has to
get the ball rolling.
> Debian is also not like free software in that many things really
> have to be coordinated together. So treat my proposal as a _very_
> humble suggestion of how we could improve the openness of the
> project, make it easier for people to contribute, lift the burden of
> AM's and sponsors, and also to take away dangerous rights from DD's
> that they really don't need.
As I said, suggestions on how other people can do work are
cheap. The current DPL went on his own and set up the testing on his
own, just a proof of concept script set. ANd then, it was inducted in
as how Debian releases.
>> On 25 Apr 2006, Panu Kalliokoski said:
>>> I hoped the proposal I was making would allow us to eat the cake
>>> and keep it too: offer an open upload area but keep the main
>>> archive under strict quality criteria. I expect it to be easier
>>> to check package quality, too, if they're being autobuilt and
>>> available for BTS reports _before_ having been uploaded to the
>>> main archive.
>> This open area for uploads does not need to be offered by Debian,
>> does it? Anyone who thinks this is a good idea can set up an
>> anon-ftp area and gather random debs. I seem to recall we already
>> have one such unofficial repository -- but, people can always add
> If you're talking about www.debian-unofficial.org, that's only for
> licensing/political problems, it's only built for 4 archs, it isn't
> mentioned in the Debian documentation, consequently it's not known
> even to all DD's, and it lacks infrastructure for maintainers.
> Debian is such a big and rich project that you can't just remake it
> like that. Debian-unofficial deserves kudos for their effort,
You can get things started. You do not have to have 11 arches
for that. If there is any merit at all in this wild and wooly package
repository, interest, and volunteers, shall follow.
Bottom line remains: show us the code.
>>> Not if those people have to be properly identified via their PGP
>>> keys. Such a simple requirement will already cut off the "casual
>>> Joes" that only vote once because they saw the announcement
>>> somewhere. It also prevents most ways of abuse.
>> Again, anyone can set up such a voting mechanism. Collect
>> keys, check out devotee, and you are good to go.
> ... except that the outcomes of the votes won't take effect. And
> the mystic DD aura remains.
Err, if you want to actually get something done, set up the
voting, and show what the user response was, in parrallel to
an official vote. Perhaps DD's would be influenced, and it would be
far easier to take something that is setup and add it in, rather than
just wait around for the constitution to be changed.
"A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from
a simple system that worked." -- John Gall, _Systemantics_
Manoj Srivastava <email@example.com> <http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/>
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