Re: Two Macedonias
(Your mails is too long, please try to be more consise and to the
point, inability to do so probably means that you have no good
understanding of the issue).
On Δευ 27 Σεπ 2004 05:33, siward wrote:
> In my opinion,
> nonchalantly discarding the concern that people may get shot dead
> in favor of "better for sorting issues [in the installer list]",
> constitutes criminal negligence.
You are definitely exaggerating.
> For the Greek input to this,
> Konstantinos has unfortunately been harassed away from this
> discussion by his fellow countrymen,
> and we have received a message from George Papamichelakis
> asking us to not drag l10n-hellas (which i had CC'ed) into
> this.
I planned to stay out of this, but my name was mentioned and I have to
clarify things a bit. First, i was harassed by just countrymen,
certainly not 'fellow' and the things actually were turned against
them, since i had strong support mails from other greeks on this
matter. Still, the people that told me this have got one thing right:
that I am in no position to take decisions on this matter. So I will
not make any. But I will try to influence those who will make a
decision. My difference is that I'll try to influence towards a
commonly accepted solution instead of a solution that satisfies only
one side, because we will soon have the same issue.
> This is an absurd lie,
> as i hope you agree with me after having read the concerns i
> stated above, and is filed by a person, not by or on behalf of a
> group (at least there is no mention of any group in the text of
> this message).
>
> Does this group really exist, Christian ?
> Or did you just make it up ?
Though I am sure Christian will surely be able to defend himself, I
can certainly say that I am displeased that you throw flames at him.
I know Christian is trying his best to find a compromise solution to
a matter to which in the end he is indifferent of the outcome.
Trying to make him look like he is taking sides is irresponsible.
FWIW, this group of people in FYROM that feel like this does indeed
exist and they do believe that the name issue is over.
> The only indirect reports of attitudes of Greek and Republic
> Macedonian people toward this matter are completely negative :
> They absolutely dont want to become involved in even discussing
> it.
True, but not because we don't care, but because there are more
important and practical things, like eg Greek support for Debian
installer.
> I have flewn blind before, (no sight, just intruments..),
> and i have confidence in my ability to navigate under such
> conditions. In fact, i feel confident in stating that
> in my opinion "Republic Macedonia" is the best available choice.
> I might even be willing to risk my life on this.
> But i am absolutely unwilling to risk the lives of the whole
> populations of Republic Macedonia and Greece on such a meager
> basis.
Trust me, one wrong choice on your part will scarcely make things
worse. As it is, people in both countries have more important things
to think of, like unemployment, national debts, SW patents etc.
>
> Furthermore, i can not decide this issue on my own,
> and i have a lot less confidence in
> the ability of some other people involved in this thread
> to take correct decisions despite having no valid view on the
> matter than i have in my own.
Although I appreciate your willingness to resolve this matter, perhaps
you should refrain from such remarks.
> Therefore i ask you
> to agree that consensus has been reached
> that we must absolutely keep our hands off this,
> and therefore must revert back to using fyrom.
One point that was made from one of my countrymen is that discussions
will initiate on this matter from both parts (Greece/FYROM) soon. So
maybe we could wait on the outcome of these discussions (if any).
> And i ask you Martin, as Debian Project Leader,
> and therefore directly responsible for decisions made by Debian,
> to make sure that Debian keeps its hands off this,
> whether consensus is reached or not.
> For the sake of the people in the countrys mentioned,
> For the sake of the Debian Project,
> For the sake of not being personally held responsible for
> criminal negligence,
> obstructing and sabotaging the foreign politics of your country,
> trying to destabilize a friendly nation and NATO partner,
> crimes against humanity,
> and even, very remotely possible (as i will presently discuss),
> leading an organization of international terrorism.
> And out of respect for
> the capabilities of the leaders of the countrys involved
> to handle their own affairs themselves.
>
> _Keep_ _your_ _hands_ _off_ _this_ !
Come on, how can the DPL be charged for all these? This sounds like a
political speech to me, and we've had enough of this all these years
thank you. Pulling Martin into this is both unfair to him and
irresponsible, since he's not one of the groups involved and unless
he's a learned historian on the Balkans History (which he might be,
but I wouldn't know) then asking him to take sides in this (even a
remark like "Keep Off" is forcing him to have to respond and thus
take sides on this matter).
Martin, you don't have to reply to this thread. Really.
> It is this :
> # A certain debian developer, whose name i will not name here,
> # is an agent or marionet of
> # a country that engages in international terrorism,
> # whose name i will not name,
> # but is the same one that i suspect of
> # having successfully provoked civil war in Liberia and Sierra
> Leone. # In order to increase the possibilitys for this country to
> # gain more influence in the former Yugoslav region,
> # it desires to destabilize the countrys of that area.
> # That is ofcourse a very blamable undertaking,
> # and as they do not want to get blamed for it,
> # they set out to produce the desired effect as a series of
> # small steps that are each not very blamable in themselves,
> # trying to get each of these steps done by an
> # overly credulous but completely innocent person
> # (known as a 'fall-guy').
> # Their strategy for Republic Macedonia is
> # to try to associate the country's name with any concept that
> # is not limited to the borders of that country,
> # so that they may precede from there onto
> # convincing dissatisfied people in the country that
> # they should struggle and their struggle should involve other
> countrys. # As they are not dealing with overly credulous
> politicians in this matter, # they try to get a wrong name
> established anywhere else, # so that they may induce someone to
> # innocently present that as a 'fait accompli'.
> # Fall guys in this case would include :
> # Skopje Linux User Group
> # Ivan Stojmirov
> # Alastair McKinstry
> # Martin Michlmayr
YOU MUST BE JOKING! These people probably don't care about such petty
politics and try to refrain from such accusations.
> However, the true relevance for Debian lies in the question
> "Is Debian sufficiently aware of the possibility that
> it might be employed as a vehicle for international terrorism
> to have a reasonable amount of resistance against it ?".
> This is why i present you and the project with such scenario,
> so that you and future projectleaders will take it into account.
> (i hope that projectleaders keep some form of log
> that they pass on to their successors).
> We can not be expected to know everything,
> and there is no reason why our resistance would be considered
> less than that of similar organizations ;
> however, as the size of the project grows,
> so must the scope of it's management.
Debian by definition is fully open, ie it does not restrict its use on
anything (be it terrorism, army devices or even nuclear weapons.)
DFSG (clause 5 & 6).
> To wrap this business up there remains one other thing to do,
> namely handling the issue that the fyrom identifier
> is said by some to be insulting to some Debian users.
> The reasons we need to handle it are that
> the topic has been discussed in depth, so we can not claim
> ignorance, and the insult can be avoided by us.
> The insult can be avoided by us by adding to the installer manual
> a notice saying something like :
> "Debian wishes to assure all it's users that
> the use of FYROM as identifier is not intended as an insult to
> anybody, but used solely because we have no other choice."
Unless you have studied the history of the whole region and I am not
talking about the recent politics, and you know precisely the issue,
then I hold you and everyone else an ignorant on this matter.
Still, Debian's decisions should try to be as objective as possible,
however that still is difficult, since after all, Debian itself
consists of _individuals_.
> If Debian decides to not have that notice,
> it will probably fare equally well,
> but why settle for 'probably'.
because you can't please everyone?
> Projectleader, please note that i will inform your government about
> the crimes that you are on the verge of becoming responsable for,
> if this should turn out to be necessary.
Now if I were the DPL, I would be extremely pissed by such an unjust
statement, but thankfully I am not and don't know how Martin will
react. But your
> I hope that settles matters for this thread.
> However, until now, i have, with every message i sent on this
> thread, thought that i presented the only complete, fundamental,
> and God-given truth ;
> For every message, i have had to later review my contribution
> as containing elements that were stupid, jerky, or completely
> wrong. This would not have been possible without the involvement
> of all who have contributed to this thread.
> I thank you all.
I have to say that what you have probably done is "put oil into
fire" (as a manner of speaking). Accusing people of carefully
planning to resolv the issue like political spies do, and esp. people
who have done their best to promote a GLOBAL ideal. I know personally
quite many of them and I can definitely say that I am very annoyed at
your "accusations.
> Make Love, not war.
Exactly. "Love thy neighbour", but what you promote here is conflict
over a name.
PS. I really hate dragging myself into this thread, but I don't like
the turn it has taken. Instead of leading to a compromise, it's
turning into a massive colletion of lies, accusations, and
pessimistic scenarios.
Regards
Konstantinos
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