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Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

> 	Heh. Seems tome that you are merely displaying your
>  inexperience

Could be.  Given there are half a billion women in the world it could take
me a while to get the requisite experience.

> 	What Helen mentions is not a feeling that is an isolated case,
>  and felt just by her. This is a wide spread phenomena. My wife has a
>  Ph.D., and is widely published, and has landed two tenure track jobs
>  (which, in biology, is quite a feat). And yet, she says she still has
>  to struggle with exactly the same feelings that Helen describes. It
>  is not inexperience, and it seems unrelated to the skill set.

I'm not denying the feeling exists.  I'm saying it is the experiencer has
to deal with it.  And you know what? some of them I dare say most actually
do.  It's a different situation from institutional discrimination where
only other people have the ability to solve the problem.

> 	My wife also has been involved in Women in Science groups on
>  three separate campuses across the country, and stories and
>  experiences like this abound.

ok.  Are there any Men in Science groups we can compare experiences with?

> 	Aha. The short sighted denial in action. You think the
>  experience of skilled, experienced women who feel intimidated in an
>  arena funtioning with the male orieted mind set is the same as the
>  natural hesitation in face of new things? Heh.

Yes I do.  Or rather I think it could be.  As anecdotal evidence mine is
as good as yours.  Let me ask you then, how would you go about setting up
an experiment to test the hypothesis that Debian is scary to women?

> 	Men and women have different reactions to stimuli, and
>  fight-or-flight situations. They have entirely different group
>  dynamics from what men do.

Furthermore they are from Venus while men are from Mars.  Please.

_People_ have different reactions to stimuli, fight-or-flight situations
and group dynamics.

>  In my experience, women have very
>  different interpersoanl communication strategies as compared to men.
>  You think that going into a male dominated culture, which functions
>  entirely differently from how women interact, may have something to
>  do with the hestitation, hmmm?

No kidding.  But do you think a man with a "different interpersonal
communication strategies" would have any easier time of it?  Look at our
demographics.  We hardly have a representative cross-section of the male
gender either.

> 	Heard of Grace Hopper? Know whom the language Ada is named
>  for? You think that in any way changes the differences in the way men
>  and women behave and interact?

No of course a sample of one couldn't change that.  But why are you
assuming a sample of one (or two including your wife but then I'm
including mine) implies anything?

> 	Not having a an intuitive feel for the working model the other
>  person is using  in an interaction can lead to misinterpreted
>  signals. Misunderstandings, espescially if you are already nervous,
>  can lead to feelings of being unwilling to caterpult oneself into a
>  forum like this, where for even expressing these feeling insensitive
>  clods shall call you a flake.
> 	Yes, I did call you an insensitive clod. So sue me.

Careful Manoj you're scaring away the women.

> > There does seem to be a divide between the hacker mentality and that
> > of normal people.  I've
> 	Of all the stupid things to say,

Oops another non-nurturing comment from Manoj.

 perpetuating this idiotic
>  stereotype,

Number three

 and implying mere grrrrls can be 31337 hacker dudes is
>  one of the stupidest I can think of.


Nope no big bags of dripping testerone here.

But see ladies!  When someone says hurtful things to you, you can just
laugh them off.

> 	I posit she is doing her very best to protect your fragile
>  male ego.

Yeah she's very nice to me that way.  (5)

> 	Yup. We are just big bags of dripping hacker testosterone, and
>  our beetling brows shall never allow us to change.

Evidently not.  And as the father of a possible female hacker of the
future I don't mind a bit.

Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar@debian.org>
La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/

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