Re: mentors.debian.net reloading
> > > I'm scared by the thought that there will be a dozen PPAs that end-users
> > > will use to get their software from third-party sources. IMHO good
> > > packages should go officially into Debian. And bad packages should go to
> > > hell. Sponsorship might be a problem sometimes which may be solved by
> > > the "Debian Maintainer" status which should allow you to upload packages
> > > into Debian. I would hate to read on mailing lists "the version of
> > > 'kaffeine' in Debian is outdated. There is a newer version in PPA X
> > > that you could use. Or you use the version in PPA Y which is even newer
> > > but I hard it's broken". (shiver)
> >
> > Why not? It's like with Ubuntu - it also has some newer packages.
>
> Really? I'm not doing much with Ubuntu. How are they doing that?
I meant that some packages in Ubuntu are newer than in Debian. And I
wanted to point out that it is not bad for Debian - becuase when
someone decides he wants to fix it in Debian, he can simply take the
Ubuntu package to have something to start with.
> Ah, okay, I get it now. You want to provide binary packages for software
> that is not yet accepted in Debian. Interesting idea. Like a
> not-even-yet-in-unstable repository. I fear that it might lead to
Yep.
> end-users complaining that Debian sucks though because they don't know
> what they are doing and that PPAs are without the responsibility of the
> "actual" Debian project. I sometimes find myself taking other people's
> source packages and use them because they are not yet available in
> "unstable" although they come from an ITP or RFS that is two years old
> and the package is really in a bad condition. Couldn't hurt to offer
> that. If you know what you are doing it might be better to get an
> inofficial and partly broken package and fix that instead of starting
> with nothing.
It's just a social thing. If there is ever going to be something like
an official debian ppa, there should be a clear statement on the PPA
website:
"The only official and supported repo is the Debian main archive
(unstable, testing, stable). Take it or leave it. It takes time to get
high quality packages in there, so this PPA can be used to get any
packges now. Quality may differ, please don't complain on Debian lists
about it, but rather take the package from PPA, improve it and get it
to Debian through the standard procedure."
> I've thought about all the needs, the arguments, the idea of PPAs and
> what mentors is about and should be. My current idea is to work on
> something similar but more low-level than PPAs that could be generic
> enough to be a basis both for binary archives and for mentors. Perhaps
> that's idiotic because the needs look a bit different. PPAs would
> currently be there to publish packages and build them. mentors.d.n would
> be there to get source packages sponsored. But there is a common ground
> that both software would need:
>
> - storage for source (and optionally: binary) packages
> - QA checks when uploading source packages
> - social interaction (e.g. notification of new uploads of a certain
> package - could be interesting for end-users as well as sponsors)
>
> I'm positive that this is similar to what you were proposing all the
> time. :) Currently I'm trying to get all the features together and see
> how it can be implemented while staying as generic as possible. Let's
> see what that leads to. I hope it will finally be something that can be
> used for other services, too. Perhaps even for PPA-like services.
> I'm thinking a similar way (using a Python web framework - although a
> different one).
Yeah, unforutunately there are several good python frameworks. But I
don't mind any framework, as long as its going to work.
> So at least I expect to come up with a Python module
> that helps dealing with Debian source packages and repositories. I hoped
> that python-apt would help but last time I looked it was only there to
> deal with the APT cache. I spent a lot of time parsing control files
> correctly and will tidy that up and publish that properly at least.
Exactly! Please do so. I was also looking at python-apt, but it's not
usable for me. I was just about to write exactly as you did, so if you
publish it, it will help me a lot.
That's we should do - build the services from small robust blocks,
that other people can easily reuse to build their own good service of
their wishes.
> > But anyway, I prefer to do something rather than to talk, so I bought
> > a virtualserver with unlimited bandwidth and I am going to try to
> > build the debian PPA, just for myself at the beginning. And I'll see
> > how it works.
>
> Good idea. You'll probably be able to show something off much quicker
> than me still philosophing about mentors.d.n V3.0. :) I'm curious but
> could imagine that ppa.debian.net (or mypackages.debian.net or
> inofficial.debian.net or whatever) might become a useful resource.
Yes. I am trying my ideas here:
http://debian.certik.cz/
But currently it's only a regular repository. When you release your
scripts to help with repositories etc, I'll improve the page:
http://debian.certik.cz/ppa/packages/
with useful information about the packages. Now I need to get the
automatic buildings done.
>
> > And the buildbots with Goneri and when we have it, we
> > can talk, if this service is useful or not for Debian and wheter it
> > should be more official, or not. If we decide it's rather not good for
> > Debian, I'll just create access for people that ask me to.
>
> Having more services for Debian maintainers and users won't hurt. The
> worst thing that can happen is that only few people use it.
Yep. And I am fine with that as long as it actually works for me. But
I think people will use it. :)
Ondrej
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