Re: Eclipse 3.0 Running ILLEGALY on Kaffe
Dalibor Topic <firstname.lastname@example.org> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
>> Dalibor Topic <email@example.com> writes:
>> But distributing them as one work -- say, the Debian OS -- is covered
>> by the GPL. In what way is Debian not a "work that you distribute or
>> publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the
>> Program (Kaffe) or any part thereof"?
> That's the 'Debian OS includes a GPLd work, so everthing must be GPLd'
> fallacy. :)
> It is in the same way the Debian OS is not illegal to distribute just
> because it in whole or in part contains both the Linux kernel and the
> apache web server, as the GPL is incomatible with the apache
> license. But as the GPL of one work does not put restrictions on
> separate, non-derived works distributed alongside it, everything is
So long as all they are is merely aggregated with it, this is true.
When they are entwined with dependencies, every component of the
collection must be distributed under the GPL.
> Were your intepretation correct, the GPL would not be DFSG-free, and
> the kernel, gcc, bash, and all that would have to move to non-free
> leaving nothing in main, afaict.
>> There is a slight mistake in what you have said. My claim is that
>> Eclipse does not infringe, but a work containing Eclipse and Kaffe
>> entwined does. Something copyrightable, GPLd from Kaffe has to end up
>> in the copy of *Debian* that is being distributed, which it clearly
> Debian does not distribute Kaffe and Eclipse entwined though. Eclipse
> contains no part of Kaffe nor is it derived from it. Neither is Kaffe
> derived from Eclipse or contains parts thereof. So there is nothing
> copyrightable from one work ever ending up in the other and no mixing
> happens in the separate packages.
> Debian OS already has the licenses to distribute both eclipse and
> Kaffe. As no DFSG-free license places restrictitons on data
> distributed on the same medium alongside it, there is no problem in
> doing so.
>>>It doesn't concern Eclipse any more than distributing the Linux
>>>kernel, gcc, bash, or anything else under the GPL does, because to all
>>>these programs, Eclipse is a bunch of data, just like for Kaffe.
>> Were that the case, Eclipse could go in Main without Kaffe being
>> there at all. But it's not in main right now -- because there's no
>> free JVM for it to depend on.
> Eclipse is not in main because of debian's policy for main, which
> says, afaik among other things, that a work can only go into main if
> both the license of the work is DFSG-free and it is buildable with
> other works in main. And the latter just happened.
> As Gadek is annoyed that Eclipse 3 builds and works with Kaffe but not
> with his 'competing' SableVM, he tried to scare the Eclipse 3 packager
> from submitting it by shouting that running Eclipse on Kaffe is
> illegal (see subject ;).
> That's all a part of a long FUD campaign against users, developers and
> distributors of Kaffe led by a few SableVM developers since 2002, in
> order to scare people into using, developing and distributing SableVM
> instead of Kaffe.
Sigh. That's more disgusting than your dollar bills.
> I'm sorry for using very graphical terms on this list and to vomiting
> all over you in particular. I've lost my patience there. I've been at
> the receiving end of this anti-Kaffe, anti-GPL fud every couple of
> months since mid-2002, and I've been at the receiving end of vague
> suggestions that I could be sued in Canada, the home of SableVM
> developers, for interpreting the GPL in the way that is not to a
> SableVM developer's liking, and so on, and so on, despite that the
> original authors of Kaffe clearly interpreted the GPL in a very
> permissive way, as can be seen here:
> "Can I run proprietary Java applications and native JNI libraries
> under Kaffe?
> Yes, you can. Kaffe's choice of GPL does not affect your ability to
> run any Java or JNI-based code that you could run on any other Java
> virtual machine."
Can you get an explicit answer from them as to whether you can
distribute proprietary applications with Kaffe?
Brian Sniffen firstname.lastname@example.org