Re: More info Re: Good cell phone to use as modem with Debian? cable? bluetooth?
A. F. Cano wrote:
[snipped heavily throughout...]
That sucks big time. Makes you want to desert and go to another
carrier, which I might still do since I'm not bound by a contract.
I did. Verizon can go jump in a lake (and Cingular too) if they're
going to be forcing people to use the cards. The phone can do it, let
the phone do the job the engineers of the phone intended it to.
Convergence, people... convergence. ;-)
Buh-bye Verizon. See ya.
section they show that they DO allow Bluetooth tethering to only one
device, and their salespeople tell me that the newer style Blackberry
and the $49.95 data plan for that phone also allows tethering.
Having never used bluetooth before, I'm confused. Do you mean that you
can establish a bluetooth connection to just one external device from
the cell phone/blackberry or that Verizon only offers one device with
bluetooth that allows tethering?
Sorry that wasn't very clear. Verizon claims to only allow tethering on
ONE phone on their website... some Audiovox PDA they don't even sell
anymore.
However their salespeople stated that a DIFFERENT phone (one of the
Blackberry PDA phones) allows tethering TODAY.
Their information on their website is so disjointed and leans so much
toward the general feel of "we don't want you to do this", I quickly
gave up on them and went to a saner service provider.
People have found ways to turn the Bluetooth profiles back on, but
Verizon started sending letters to "abusers" last week, shutting off
their accounts and charging large fines.
This is bizarre. Doesn't the speed at which you can connect to
Verizon's data service depend on settings that only they can set at
their servers/routers/whatever? Why would (say) changing the bluetooth
profile to enable transfer of files (if this is possible) or any other
bluetooth setting cause their lawyers to go apoplectic?
Apparently not. You dial the same "number" (#777 I believe) for either
one, and the phone connects at its best rate, as best I can tell. There
may be extended AT command strings to the "modem" that would force a
particular speed but anyone with half a clue about how modems work could
rip Verizon's "connection management" software GUI off their Windows
machine and just bump up their speed by editing their dialing strings,
and I'm sure Verizon doesn't want people to figure THAT out.
I could be wrong on this though, they probably have some soft control
from their side but no idea how to tie it to their billing system so the
network follows the paid-for speeds. Who knows... (GRIN)?
I'll probably never own an EV-DO capable phone from Verizon now that
I've dumped them for being clueless... so, someone else will have to
enlighten us.
Politics and greed... The customer as cash cow to be milked.
Mostly greed. The network was designed from the phone on up to allow
mixed voice/data once EV-DO is deployed, but they really wanted
something else... they apparently want to sell phones for voice and data
cards for data.
Thus, lots of confusion about which devices can be coaxed into doing
various things.
It appears that (at least for the E815) THE cable to have is a USB cable
with a charge port, as that allows low level access, per the
nuclearelephant web site above. I hope it is possible to transfer files
via this cable and that the external memory card slot has not been
disabled by Verizon. Where else can you then store the pictures you
take? 40M of builtin memory is not that much.
ALL of the carriers LOVE to have you use up your text messages and or
pay for high-speed data service to send your photos from the phone to
their captive web portal where they can then up-sell you things like
prints, etc. Terms like "Unlimited picture messaging for only
$9.95/month!" are scattered all over the place on all of their websites.
None of them really like that the darn device was designed to be able to
just act like a USB drive and you copy the files off, in most cases.
Just buy a cable. Verizon takes this further by crippling OBEX so you
can't send pictures between compatible Bluetooth devices... which is
amazingly dumb. Astonishingly dumb, really. I shouldn't be able to use
the Bluetooth to send a photo to my Bluetooth-enabled PDA? Laptop?
Another friend in the same room? It's not like I should *NEED* a telco
carrier to transfer things ACROSS THE ROOM, but they want people to
believe they do. LOL!
I get the impression that having a USB cable is the way to go for any
"advanced" stuff, more features seem to be available on more devices,
ESPECIALLY if the carrier has been mucking around and changing or
removing Bluetooth profiles like Verizon does.
[ about T-Mobile, Cingular ]
On this subject, in case I decide to dump Verizon. What is the
consensus out there as to which cellullar carrier is the best deal for
linux data connectivity, and still has good voice coverage?
This is HIGHLY dependent on the network build-out in your area. In some
areas of the country, the smaller carriers have better networks than the
larger ones, in very specific geographic regions.
If you're looking at overall nationwide coverage, the two giants are
Verizon and AT&T/Cingular. Both come from mergers that included the old
A & B side analog carriers, and thus they have access to all of those
original tower/cell sites plus more. Most of the carriers that didn't
have the analog presence (there could only be two), are usually some
amount "behind" the others in all markets... but in major metropolitan
areas it's getting hard to find a "bad" carrier, unless the metro is a
sprawling one like many of the SoCal and North East metros.
I live in Denver, and the carriers probably rank about like this for
coverage:
1. Verizon
2. Cingular/AT&T
3. T-Mobile
4. Sprint
5. Nextel
(Technically Sprint and Nextel are the same company now, but their
networks aren't yet compatible here, while Cingular/AT&T have pretty
much shut down TDMA -- AT&T's old standard -- or it's so severely
limited that they're effectively "merged" here at this point in time.)
But this would change dramatically in any other area of the country.
Verizon phones don't have the bluetooth profile necessary to connect a
laptop for data purposes. They want you to buy their high speed data
card.
Then I presume that the DUN profile enabled by # #DIALUP only applies
to the USB cable?
From what I've read, I think so. But I'm also unsure on this, since
it's a "hack" and the folks posting about it don't seem to post very
good details on EXACTLY what they're attempting to accomplish... maybe
I'm reading the wrong websites on this one.
By the way, that string has no effect at all on a DUN-less AUN-less
T-Mobile Motorola RAZR, in case anyone's wondering. ;-)
All I can hope is that the competition catches up in coverage, features
and quality and that the competitive pressure forces verizon to be
more customer oriented. If I end up changing carriers I'm definitely
going to let them know that it's their corporate attitude and the
crippleware that did it. Everyone else that dumps them should do the
same, maybe at some point they'll notice.
They won't. They're making enough money on the corporate types with the
data cards, that losing a few folks who want to tether at low *or*
high-speed only makes more bandwidth available for the data card junkies
willing to pay $59/month for them. ;-)
My research also shows that Cingular used to allow (well, ignored
really) Bluetooth tethering (as it's called) with their data plan added
onto the phone service, but they're getting more negative toward this.
They appear to be ready to follow in Verizon's footsteps, and start
cracking down, but people ARE tethering on Cingular, and they don't
appear to cripple their phone's Bluetooth like Verizon has been for a
long time now. Having the right data plan to avoid overage charges
appears to be CRITICAL on Cingular's network, also.
I'm confused again. How does what you do with a local connection (from
the phone to the laptop) affect the connection speed between the phone
and the provider's towers? My old phone supported at least 38.4k
through the rs-232 cable but I still got 14.4 out of the cell
connection. USB data transfers are much faster than anything that can
go over the air. Are they also complaining about USB "tethering"? :-)
What am I missing?
Again I was unclear. Cingular is starting to frown on ALL tethering,
would have been a better way to phrase that whole paragraph.
T-Mobile and Sprint still appear to completely allow tethering and don't
complain about it as long as you have the appropriate data plan added to
the phone. I discarded Sprint early-on in my search so I don't know the
In my case, I presume the "data plan" is the included 14.4Kbs connection
that is possible, using minutes as you would when talking. Why would
tethering have any bearing on that?
Again, once you have a high-speed capable phone, I think they have
little control over what rate you connect at, so if you make a "data"
connection, you get the highest rate possible.
Thus, they'll probably disable data completely by removing the AUN (as
T-Mobile has done on my RAZR) so that only WAP works, not IP
connectivity... UNLESS you have a data plan.
In other words, I could tether TO this phone right now, but it has no IP
connectivity to the outside world at the moment, only WAP gateway.
I'd have to have a data plan turned on in order for them to send down an
update to the phone to enable a direct data AUN profile.
T-Mobile also sells their Sony/Ericsson GC79 and one newer model dual
802.11 and GPRS cards, and their network is not yet high-speed. 56K
max. For a fixed rate of $29.95 without a qualifying phone plan, and
$19.95 with one -- it's an awfully easy way to make Linux "just work" on
celluar data... at a slow data rate. With ndiswrapper you can also use
Ok. So it looks like T-Mobile is the way to go if I dump verizon.
For a little more than a real (land phone) dialup connection, I can
get equivalent data access.
It's slower (latency) than a land-line, by far. But it does work "okay"
for interactive ssh sessions. I don't like doing it for extended periods.
I have been known to drop the laptop on the nightstand in the hotel,
plug in the charger, fire up Thunderbird, tell it to sync, and go to
dinner... it'll be done around the time I get back. (GRIN)
The bad news on T-Mobile is that the phone does NOT have the ASN enabled
for IP access if you don't have the all-you-can-eat data plan, at all.
Apparently they send this down when you activate data.
So the slow speed mode is not available at all...
Doesn't appear to be but I'm still getting the appropriate hardware to
try it. I'll report back.
They also (for some dumb reason), completely hid the native e-mail
application Motorola provides on the phone itself that will do POP3 and
IMAP, and instead push you to use their web-based system through the WAP
browser. Dumb. Why do that? Getting the e-mail client back is
supposedly possible via a hack if you're willing to reflash the phone,
remove all the T-Mobile branding and screens and go back to a stock
Motorola flash of code... supposedly. I haven't attempted this, and may
not... we'll see how brave I get.
What is wrong with the cellular industry? (Rhetorical question)
It's run by guys who think multi-million dollar houses are normal and
proper places to live... oh wait, that's most of corporate America...
and the shareholders don't call them on the carpet for it, or demand
lower salaries for them so they get a better return on their
investments, at least.
(Ha... I'll get that topic started and it'll never end!)
[ very useful info deleted ]
AFAIK, Verizon's completely crippled and will call you a thief and
disable your service if you manage to enable high-speed data services
through bluetooth or cable tethering unless you have the data plans.
Ahh... So the same setting that allows bluetooth OBEX (object exchange)
which if I understand correctly is what allows you to transfer files
via the bluetooth interface to the laptop, also enables the high speed
service? What does tethering actually enable or let you do?
I think so, or there's another profile. It's difficult to understand.
Perhaps a cellular expert could jump in here...
Even then their reps don't understand it, and would rather you had their
PCMCIA card.
Because the phones use the same profiles to connect to the computer via
Bluetooth whether you're using high-speed of low-speed data services,
Verizon simply cripples the Bluetooth to avoid the "problem".
No wonder I don't understand. Verizon is cutting its ears off so they
don't smell the stink they're causing. So, the problem is... what
exactly?
Hahah... they want to limit access to the high-speed side of the network
so that only people who've paid a LOT extra can get to it, but the
devices don't give them a way to do it, so they just disable everything
and say "buy a data card", as best as I can tell.
This makes it very difficult for you to tether. It *might* be
permissable to tether using a cable and only use your minutes for low
speed data, but I really can't find anything that states this either way
right now... they're in transition and they really want you to buy the
high speed card and stuff it in your laptop... so their reps are all
quite confused, as usual.
Well, no chance that I'm going to pay $80/month for a connection or
two every six months, which is all I'm likely to need.
Same here.
[ about getting to the GPS data as NMEA output]
Ok. Bleeding edge item. Not likely any time soon.
Heh. A cheap GPS is probably easier, but you're right... convergence
here would be nice also... AGPS data is already being created in the
phone...
[ about syncing the address book]
This is very phone-specific. With the RAZR (as an example), you have to
...
Ok, one more item I can't really count on, at least in the near future.
I've just read another response from someone that syncs a treo 650. So
at least there's something to have as a reference. Whether it will work
with the phone I end up choosing (and right now the Motorola E815 is the
likely candidate, IF I stay with verizon) is an open question. I can
count on entering the phone numbers manually, sigh...
Incidentally, I have read somewhere that verizon wasn't even supplying,
at some point in time, software/drivers to sync outlook to one of their
phones...
PDA phones are the best bet if you need syncing. I had a Blackberry
device on Verizon before this phone, and having the PDA was nice...
but... I got tired of the poor performace of the PDA phone as a PHONE.
I want the device to be a PHONE first, and a PDA second.
Most of the first generation stuff was a PDA with a phone slapped on as
an afterthought.
The newer generation are better phones, but they took away the real
QWERTY keyboard. I gave up on RIM/Blackberry devices and looked for a
PHONE that got good reviews.
The RAZR has software available to sync phone numbers into it from
Outlook (unfortunately I have to use Outlook at work), so that'll take
care of that.
A common complaint of the PHONES (not PDA's) is that they won't sync
REAL STREET ADDRESSES from anything... there's not even a field for it.
That is just silly/sloppy design... Anyone listening over at Motorola?
LG? Samsung? Sony/Ericsson? More fields please!
I'll let you know if/when I finally get the RAZR working on T-Mobile.
Probably do a write-up on my website also. But I am waiting for
confirmation that my earlier contract has expired for the GC-79.
I'll also keep the list updated as to what I find out.
Cool.
If it does, you might be able to do something like move to T-Mobile, add
the $19.95 all-you-can-eat data plan, buy a used GC-79 on eBay and just
move the SIM card... moving the SIM isn't super "easy" on these tiny
phones, but it should be do-able... gotta love GSM having those!
Mmm... If I move to T-mobile, could I not use a data-capable phone to
talk voice and bits at different times? Why would I need to change
SIM cards? I haven't bought a phone yet, so if I moved over I would
get T-mobile's (hopefully uncrippled) phone.
Oh I was just saying that the "ace in the hole" or "backup" plan on
T-Mobile for me is to just plop the SIM back in the GC-79 card if all of
this tethering, Bluetooth, USB, and other silliness doesn't work.
You (or anyone else) could probably do the same using a nice cheap used
GC-79 on either T-Mobile or Cingular's network. Just pop any SIM from
any phone in there and see what happens.
HEY... I just realized that I haven't tried that... putting the
supposedly crippled SIM from the phone into the data card... I may have
to give that a shot, run it for a few minutes, and see what shows up on
the billing...
Moving the SIM card should ALWAYS work, if you have the PCMCIA card
hardware available to you and a data plan on that number/SIM. ;-)
Hopefully that helps... I'm as confused as you are, but working on it! ;-)
Very much, thanks! I'll keep working at it.
Me too. Right now, I'll be off getting ready to enjoy the holidays with
family... if the darn thing works well as a PHONE, it covers 99% of my
needs... playing with the data toys will probably wait until the new
year. But maybe I'll give that SIM swap from the phone to the card a
try and see what happens... just for fun. Probably get a bill for $5 a
packet or some silliness and a Christmas card from some T-Mobile exec on
vacation in Tahiti saying, "thanks for the cash".
Nate
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