Re: Debian on Slow laptops. What setup is best?
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 16:49:57 +0300
Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:23:27 +0200
> Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:05:26 +0300
> > Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:22:40 +0200
> > > Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:54:12 -0600
> > > > Javier-Elias Vasquez-Vivas <jevv.cr@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Just keep in mind also fluxbox for your wm trials, its light
> > > > > and still have lots of nice features, its pretty configurable,
> > > > > and there are several styles available, someones havier than
> > > > > others. For remote connections I just use "Clean" style, and
> > > > > I don't attach aditional wallpaper and it's pretty light,
> > > > > actually lighter than fvwm in my experience...
> > > > >
> > >
> > > It probably depends on the setup, but could be. I tried it for a
> > > while but got caught with fvwm due to flexability, although it
> > > does take some time to set up to your taste as the configuration
> > > is in a text file and there are a LOT of options. Note that the
> > > default setup is VERY ugly and not representative. Look at the
> > > homepage for some screenshots that show what it can really do.
> > >
> > > I run a very minimalistic fvwm session (no background image, no
> > > panel, only menus simple title which I remove on maximization,
> > > which is applied to most windows to maximize desktop real estate.
> > > It take about 2.5 MB.
> > >
> > > > > Have fun,
> > > > >
> > > > > Javier.
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > Okay, I will give it a shot. Can I ask a dumb question? What is
> > > > the difference between like KDE and Gnome and XFCE, which are
> > > > Desktops, and like fluxbox, blackbox etc that are Window
> > > > Managers? I am sure this is very basic, but I dont know it. When
> > > > I launch Enlightenment for example which is a Window Manager, I
> > > > get pretty much the same experience when I launch XFce, which
> > > > is a desktop. Can somebody enlighten me?
> > >
> > > Desktops are supposed to handle the whole desktop experience. That
> > > mainly involves having a folder manager integrated with the
> > > desktop. The will mean folders on the desktop (such as my
> > > documents in windows) and usually it allows to handle all the
> > > interface settings such as keyboard switching, so system settings
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > A window manager in theory only handles the windows, providing
> > > borders for dragging and resizing, titles and by definition thats
> > > it. Most allow for some sort of pannel, either built in or
> > > external and a pager.
> > >
> > > BTW you can add integrated folder manager on the desktop using
> > > rox-desktop (I am not sure if there is much more the rox-filer)
> > >
> > > personally I use X to handle keyboard switching and everything
> > > else I usually do directly, if its X startup related, through
> > > .xsession.
> > >
> > > To handle keyboard switching with X you need to set a line for you
> > > keyboard section in the x configuration file
> > > Option "XkbLayout" "us,il"
> > > and the to switch use something like
> > > Option "XkbOptions" "grp:shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
> > > which switches keymap by pressing both shift keys and lights the
> > > scroll lock light to indicate the second keymap. I think its also
> > > possible to use a third keymap this way, but not sure, and its
> > > always possible to switch from the command line using xmodmap
> > > (which you can always attach in your setup files to some keys)
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I tried what you wrote, and it works like a charm, like you said,
> > except I cannot use it for my tasts for some reason. As you may
> > know, Japanese has weird characters, and when I put ja,hu in my
> > keymap like you did with (us,il), and I boot up, my Japanese one
> > writes characters that arent roman letters, but Japanese Katakana
> > letters . WHen I change to the other one, Hungarian, it works great.
> > I press the two shift keys, and the light comes up and all. Just the
> > default Japanese is messed up. When I have only the "ja" in my
> > keymap, then it comes up with Roman alphabet, just the layout is
> > Japanese, and I need that because my laptop has the Japanese
> > keyboard, with roman letters, but things like @ sign are in a
> > different place compare to US keymap, so I use the Japanese.
> >
> > So my question is, would you happen to know, that when I have only
> > "ja" defined, why it works, and when I have "ja,hu" defined, why the
> > Japanese starts to show Japanese characters instead of roman
> > characters?
> >
>
> Continuing from my previous email, another thing that may work instead
> is adding the line
>
> Option "XkbVariant" "latin,"
>
> to your keyboard section in the XF86Config-4 file
>
> BTW, if another email I sent on this thread got lost (I replied to a
> sent message) for light tabbed terminals try multi-aterm and
> mrxvt(-mini). They are very similar. multi-aterm has a bit nicer
> scrollbar that works with the scroll wheel and color icons, mrxvt
> looks exectly the same except for monochrome icons and athena (very
> simple) scrollbar. I tried mrxvt- mini and it seems very light (about
> 1.5M with one tab around 2M with 10). mrxvt seems more stable then
> multi-aterm and the tabs seems to behave better (size is more correct
> and the second tab in multi-aterm doesn't seem to appear correctly)
>
> I may just switch from screen as it saves a Meg and scrolls better.
Hi
Wow, good call, I shall say. I installed both, and they are both
outstanding. They give the same, and more as Xterm, and less the memory.
For me the RES column shows 8MB usage for Xterm single window, and 4.5MB
for a single window mrxvt, and 4MB for a triple tab open multi-aterm. So
I settled for aterm multi, as I can use the scroll Jogdial in my Vaio
notebook. Yes, when I open another tab, I cannot see the TAB's tag at
the top, but it will show up in about 5-10 seconds, and I can do without
it for that little while.
Great find again, 4MB more reduced, and able to get a multi-session
console. Great great stuff.
Bence
>
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ben
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, and yes, I will give fluxbox a try.
> > > >
> > > > Ben
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/23/05, Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:57:01 +0300
> > > > > > Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:01:31 +0200
> > > > > > > Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday 22 June 2005 11:36, you wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Benedek Frank wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Hi. Can you check to see if I use something really
> > > > > > > > > > that I shouldnt use at all?
> > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have realized that. I blew it away already. I will set
> > > > > > > > up Sonypid which can enable Volume controlls to speial
> > > > > > > > keys, so I dont need kmix anymore. (I guess this is how
> > > > > > > > a newbie learns).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The volume keys on my laptop just produce regular key
> > > > > > > presses (depends on whether they are acpi buttons or not),
> > > > > > > sonypi doesn't find anything on this machine. What I did
> > > > > > > was to find the key-press symcodes using xev and then I
> > > > > > > setup Xmodmap to map them to keysyms which I later map in
> > > > > > > the fvwm setup file to use amixer and xosd to show the
> > > > > > > output
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is a software called sonypid, and that is run as a
> > > > > > daemon, and can listen to all special keys, that otherwise
> > > > > > will not be listened to, unless using sonypid, at least with
> > > > > > my PCG-C1VRX/K. FOr me, also I need the sonypid, so that I
> > > > > > can use the "capture" button, to start camera, or to start
> > > > > > whatever I set it to start. Camera is pretty cool and
> > > > > > useless. (lol). I use it btw to start bluetooth, and so it
> > > > > > wont have to run all the time, just when I need it, so it
> > > > > > wont use memory. Very handy, specially I play with Nokia
> > > > > > Series 60 phones all the time, they have bluetooth support.
> > >
> > > I know about it, it just seem that my laptop lacks the sonypi
> > > extension. At least the kernel driver doesn't recognize anything.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have in ~/.Xmodmap:
> > > > > > > keycode 223 = XF86Standby
> > > > > > > keycode 160 = XF86AudioMute
> > > > > > > keycode 176 = XF86AudioRaiseVolume
> > > > > > > keycode 174 = XF86AudioLowerVolume
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And in my fvwm file (a bit complicated but not that much)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86AudioRaiseVolume A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat;
> > > > > > > amixer set PCM 100 unmute ; /usr/bin/amixer set Master 5%+
> > > > > > > unmute | sed -n "s/Front \(Left\|Right\): Playback .*
> > > > > > > \[\(.*\)\] \[.*\]/\1 \2/p" | osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A
> > > > > > > center -l2 -i -30 -s 2 -S darkgreen -f
> > > > > > > "-*-arial-bold-r-*-*-80-*-*-*- *-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86AudioLowerVolume A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat;
> > > > > > > amixer set PCM 100 unmute ; /usr/bin/amixer set Master 5%-
> > > > > > > unmute | sed -n "s/Front \(Left\|Right \): Playback .*
> > > > > > > \[\(.*\)\] \[.*\]/\1 \2/ p" | osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A
> > > > > > > center - l2 -i -30 -s 2 -S darkgreen -f "-*- arial-
> > > > > > > bold-r-*-*-80-*-*-*-*-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86AudioMute A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat; amixer set
> > > > > > > PCM 100 unmute ; if (amixer set Master toggle | grep -q
> > > > > > > '\[on\]'); then echo Un- Mute; else echo Mute; fi |
> > > > > > > osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A center -l1 -s 2 -S gray10 - f
> > > > > > > "-*-arial- bold-r-*- *-100- *-*-*-*-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Key XF86Standby A A Exec /usr/bin/eject
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for describing, I may use it. At least I can use the
> > > > > > commnads to increase or decrease volume, and plug them into
> > > > > > my script I have sonypid run when a button is presses.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Use xterm instead of gnome-terminal:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1410 tconnors 15 0 4060 4060 2192 S 0.0 0.4
> > > > > > > > > 0:44 xterm
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, a terminal emulator doesn't *need* 30m just to
> > > > > > > > > freaking run. Yikes!
> > > > > > > > Good call, I will look into getting a smaller terminal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I use rxvt-unicode-lite since I want unicode but without
> > > > > > > the bells and wisles of the full compile. In my case I
> > > > > > > just use screen embeded in the terminal for multiple
> > > > > > > instances since the fvwm tabs extention was too heavy for
> > > > > > > me (it uses perl) and I didn't want to use kterm or
> > > > > > > gnome-whatever. Another option if you want several
> > > > > > > terminal windows and not just instances is to run the rxvt
> > > > > > > server on startup and then just startup clients, reduces
> > > > > > > the memory considerably for multiple terminals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use usually one, or maximum 2, rarely 3, for chekking real
> > > > > > time logs. One problem with xterm I realized, that I cannot
> > > > > > copy and past from it to the email. It is hard to
> > > > > > troubleshoot like that. Konsole and gnome-terminal allowed
> > > > > > me to do so. But the memory is a bigger problem, so I am
> > > > > > very happy after all.
> > >
> > > Its program dependent, but yes, sylpheed and emacs seem to have
> > > some problems with pasting from X for some reason.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As much as I hate pine (I'd hate kmail worse), it only
> > > > > > > > > needs:
> > > > > > > > > 5065 tconnors 15 0 3736 3736 2272 S 0.2 0.4
> > > > > > > > > 0:00 pine
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All those other k* programs are just useless helper
> > > > > > > > > apps to kde. Blow kde away, and that'll free up a
> > > > > > > > > bit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have realized that. Actually, having the machine
> > > > > > > > rebootet, with KDM and KDE taken out of auto-start, I
> > > > > > > > got a much prettier picture, and a responsive system.
> > > > > > > > ALready half-success. When I dont start this kmail prog,
> > > > > > > > I have 140MB free mem. Yes, more than half of what I
> > > > > > > > have. Firefox eats up 20 or so. I still have 120 left.
> > > > > > > > At that point, I start Kmail, and slowly, about one
> > > > > > > > minute it starts, and I will have 20 MB left. So it eats
> > > > > > > > 100MB or RAM. That is weird. One weird program. It
> > > > > > > > starts all these programs with it
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > kmail 30MB
> > > > > > > > knotify 14MB
> > > > > > > > kded 11MB
> > > > > > > > kio_pop3 (as many times as many POP3 accounts I
> > > > > > > > have-each uses 10MB) klauncher 10MB
> > > > > > > > kdeinit 9.5MB
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is unacceptable. I am looking for a NEW email
> > > > > > > > client. I like a GUI email client, that has features
> > > > > > > > such as putting emails to the folders I want them to go
> > > > > > > > (filtering) and has support for more than one POP
> > > > > > > > account. Any takers on this? Will pine do this for me?
> > > > > > > > Can it use the maildir format?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am using sylpheed-claws-gtk2 since I want the RTL
> > > > > > > support for hebrew (gtk has unicode support properly built
> > > > > > > in). It has a few quirks but was the best I found for my
> > > > > > > tastes. If you don't need RTL sylpheed-claws seems more
> > > > > > > stable and faster and has better support for maildir
> > > > > > > (actually sylpheed-claws-gtk2 doesn't have any support for
> > > > > > > maildir but depending on version mismatches it sometimes
> > > > > > > works with the sylpheed-claws maildir pluging).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, I have slypheed now myself too, but I didnt go for the
> > > > > > -claws version, as "apt-cache search sylpheed" showed the
> > > > > > -clwas version as the "bleeding edge email client", so I
> > > > > > went for the regular "sylpheed". It seems a bit old school,
> > > > > > but I like it already more than kmail, first it starts fast,
> > > > > > second VERY IMPORTANT for me, it allows me to set the amount
> > > > > > of days it will delete the messages from the server after it
> > > > > > was received. So I am inlove with sylpheed, and I finished
> > > > > > looking for email clients. Of course I had a rough half-day
> > > > > > of converting maildir to mbox, but I am done with it now,
> > > > > > and I imported it successfuly. It is quite good now.
> > >
> > > Its marked as bleeding edge but its should be rather stable and
> > > its got quite a few more features. The gtk2 version is a bit buggy
> > > (it will crash on rare occasions, but I just start it back up) but
> > > I need the right to left support and very few email programs do
> > > that properly.
> > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are happy with the console mutt is great (the only
> > > > > > > two reasons I left it is that it didn't have a folder view
> > > > > > > to see how many emails are in each folder and switching to
> > > > > > > a specific folder can be a bit cumbersome, on the other
> > > > > > > hand it is very good at switching to the next folder with
> > > > > > > unread mail. The other reason is hebrew support, but that
> > > > > > > depends on the terminal or reader)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I only need japanese and hungarian support, and sylpheed
> > > > > > does a fairly good job in that case also, so I am happy
> > > > > > again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seriously, get rid of the kde and gnome crap. You
> > > > > > > > > don't need it. It won't make your life any happier.
> > > > > > > > > And then you will look at the dribbling fools who keep
> > > > > > > > > on drooling over the eye-candy, and laugh at their
> > > > > > > > > constant need to upgrade to the latest hardware that
> > > > > > > > > only makes their room hotter (and fucks up the
> > > > > > > > > environment for the rest of us). And you won't need
> > > > > > > > > to upgrade your computer, because when it is not
> > > > > > > > > running crufty bloated crapware, it's plenty fast
> > > > > > > > > enough.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How can I get rid of KDE and Gnome? apt-get uninstall
> > > > > > > > kde gnome ??
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Don't run KDE and GNOME programs. Note the clean gtk2
> > > > > > > programs are ok, they don't bring in all the crap only
> > > > > > > gnome programs that depend on the gnome libraries (you can
> > > > > > > see from the dependencies).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Oh, and encourage your favourite hacker to emphasise
> > > > > > > > > code quality and optimisation before useless feaping
> > > > > > > > > creaturism.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Other points that the OP mensioned:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Its a bit tricky to setup, but if you like nice gui login
> > > > > > > but want something lighter then kdm you can use qingy
> > > > > > > (qingy.sf.net) which uses the frame buffer. I'm afraid
> > > > > > > that there is no debian package though. Personally I use
> > > > > > > wdm at the moment, when I have some time I am planning to
> > > > > > > setup qingy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As a window manager I use fvwm, but its a taste issue. Its
> > > > > > > a bit harder to setup but is very flexible.
> > > > > > I am happy now with xfce, but I want to try even smaller
> > > > > > ones, so I will give it a shot.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For text I use lyx to produce latex documents, but I write
> > > > > > > math so office suits are mostly irrelevant anyway (and tex
> > > > > > > is what all journals in my field take anyway, some will
> > > > > > > also accept word, but they are a few a far between (thank
> > > > > > > god ;-) ).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For a browser I settled on opera which is fast, light and
> > > > > > > a but more complient with IE only sites then mozilla. The
> > > > > > > three main downsides with it are that it not free (you
> > > > > > > either accept an advertisement bar or you pay to get a
> > > > > > > serial), it doesn't change proxy server setups on the fly
> > > > > > > for some reason, and it uses the mozilla plugin for
> > > > > > > loading pdf files which has a memory leak, reaches over a
> > > > > > > Gig on occasion, on the other hand it has an options to
> > > > > > > load previous session on startup so you can just
> > > > > > > close/kill it and reopen to solve the problem. It also has
> > > > > > > a debian package (on their site, not the repository) so
> > > > > > > its easy to install.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will try opera. Until this point I still used Firefox.
> > > > > > Opera can display java and flash, macromedia, other stuff
> > > > > > like that.? I ocassionally need them. Or I can just keep
> > > > > > firefox for those times,,....>
> > >
> > > It recognized and loads all the mozilla plugins so there is no
> > > problem with java/flash etc. It even runs mplayer through the
> > > mozilla-mplayer plugin.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > For the record, my machine comes up with a bit
> > > > > > > under 30M ram usage running wdm, X, rxvt terminal with a
> > > > > > > screen session running in it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wow, that is outstanding. I am using 70MB after boot, with
> > > > > > all what I have, one xterm session, and the sylpheed open,
> > > > > > with X and XFce. That is way better than about 10MB free
> > > > > > (now 190MB free) when I used KDE and KDM and all the
> > > > > > K***crap. I am happy I started this thread, and I want to
> > > > > > thank you all for helping. Of course I still keep looking
> > > > > > for good ideas. At the end, I will make a website from what
> > > > > > I learnd.
> > >
> > > I didn't try with sylpheed but ps shows about 20MB usage (which is
> > > more then I like but better then others) so it my machine should
> > > tip the scales at around 50MB for a similar startup setup.
> > >
> > > I do use suspend almost always (software-suspend-2) so I very
> > > rarely cold boot (maybe twice a month) but I think startup time is
> > > around a minute.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bence
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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