Re: Debian on Slow laptops. What setup is best?
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:23:27 +0200
Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:05:26 +0300
> Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:22:40 +0200
> > Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 09:54:12 -0600
> > > Javier-Elias Vasquez-Vivas <jevv.cr@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just keep in mind also fluxbox for your wm trials, its light and
> > > > still have lots of nice features, its pretty configurable, and
> > > > there are several styles available, someones havier than others.
> > > > For remote connections I just use "Clean" style, and I don't
> > > > attach aditional wallpaper and it's pretty light, actually lighter
> > > > than fvwm in my experience...
> > > >
> >
> > It probably depends on the setup, but could be. I tried it for a while
> > but got caught with fvwm due to flexability, although it does take
> > some time to set up to your taste as the configuration is in a text
> > file and there are a LOT of options. Note that the default setup is
> > VERY ugly and not representative. Look at the homepage for some
> > screenshots that show what it can really do.
> >
> > I run a very minimalistic fvwm session (no background image, no panel,
> > only menus simple title which I remove on maximization, which is
> > applied to most windows to maximize desktop real estate. It take about
> > 2.5 MB.
> >
> > > > Have fun,
> > > >
> > > > Javier.
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Okay, I will give it a shot. Can I ask a dumb question? What is the
> > > difference between like KDE and Gnome and XFCE, which are Desktops,
> > > and like fluxbox, blackbox etc that are Window Managers? I am sure
> > > this is very basic, but I dont know it. When I launch Enlightenment
> > > for example which is a Window Manager, I get pretty much the same
> > > experience when I launch XFce, which is a desktop. Can somebody
> > > enlighten me?
> >
> > Desktops are supposed to handle the whole desktop experience. That
> > mainly involves having a folder manager integrated with the desktop.
> > The will mean folders on the desktop (such as my documents in windows)
> > and usually it allows to handle all the interface settings such as
> > keyboard switching, so system settings etc.
> >
> > A window manager in theory only handles the windows, providing borders
> > for dragging and resizing, titles and by definition thats it. Most
> > allow for some sort of pannel, either built in or external and a
> > pager.
> >
> > BTW you can add integrated folder manager on the desktop using
> > rox-desktop (I am not sure if there is much more the rox-filer)
> >
> > personally I use X to handle keyboard switching and everything else I
> > usually do directly, if its X startup related, through .xsession.
> >
> > To handle keyboard switching with X you need to set a line for you
> > keyboard section in the x configuration file
> > Option "XkbLayout" "us,il"
> > and the to switch use something like
> > Option "XkbOptions" "grp:shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll"
> > which switches keymap by pressing both shift keys and lights the
> > scroll lock light to indicate the second keymap. I think its also
> > possible to use a third keymap this way, but not sure, and its always
> > possible to switch from the command line using xmodmap (which you can
> > always attach in your setup files to some keys)
>
> Hi
>
> I tried what you wrote, and it works like a charm, like you said, except
> I cannot use it for my tasts for some reason. As you may know, Japanese
> has weird characters, and when I put ja,hu in my keymap like you did
> with (us,il), and I boot up, my Japanese one writes characters that
> arent roman letters, but Japanese Katakana letters . WHen I change to
> the other one, Hungarian, it works great. I press the two shift keys,
> and the light comes up and all. Just the default Japanese is messed up.
> When I have only the "ja" in my keymap, then it comes up with Roman
> alphabet, just the layout is Japanese, and I need that because my laptop
> has the Japanese keyboard, with roman letters, but things like @ sign
> are in a different place compare to US keymap, so I use the Japanese.
>
> So my question is, would you happen to know, that when I have only "ja"
> defined, why it works, and when I have "ja,hu" defined, why the Japanese
> starts to show Japanese characters instead of roman characters?
>
Continuing from my previous email, another thing that may work instead is adding
the line
Option "XkbVariant" "latin,"
to your keyboard section in the XF86Config-4 file
BTW, if another email I sent on this thread got lost (I replied to a sent
message) for light tabbed terminals try multi-aterm and mrxvt(-mini). They are
very similar. multi-aterm has a bit nicer scrollbar that works with the scroll
wheel and color icons, mrxvt looks exectly the same except for monochrome icons
and athena (very simple) scrollbar. I tried mrxvt- mini and it seems very light
(about 1.5M with one tab around 2M with 10). mrxvt seems more stable then
multi-aterm and the tabs seems to behave better (size is more correct and the
second tab in multi-aterm doesn't seem to appear correctly)
I may just switch from screen as it saves a Meg and scrolls better.
> Thanks
>
> Ben
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks, and yes, I will give fluxbox a try.
> > >
> > > Ben
> > > >
> > > > On 6/23/05, Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 14:57:01 +0300
> > > > > Micha Feigin <michf@post.tau.ac.il> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:01:31 +0200
> > > > > > Benedek Frank <linux@celifornia.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Wednesday 22 June 2005 11:36, you wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Benedek Frank wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Hi. Can you check to see if I use something really that
> > > > > > > > > I shouldnt use at all?
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have realized that. I blew it away already. I will set up
> > > > > > > Sonypid which can enable Volume controlls to speial keys, so
> > > > > > > I dont need kmix anymore. (I guess this is how a newbie
> > > > > > > learns).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The volume keys on my laptop just produce regular key presses
> > > > > > (depends on whether they are acpi buttons or not), sonypi
> > > > > > doesn't find anything on this machine. What I did was to find
> > > > > > the key-press symcodes using xev and then I setup Xmodmap to
> > > > > > map them to keysyms which I later map in the fvwm setup file
> > > > > > to use amixer and xosd to show the output
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a software called sonypid, and that is run as a daemon,
> > > > > and can listen to all special keys, that otherwise will not be
> > > > > listened to, unless using sonypid, at least with my PCG-C1VRX/K.
> > > > > FOr me, also I need the sonypid, so that I can use the "capture"
> > > > > button, to start camera, or to start whatever I set it to start.
> > > > > Camera is pretty cool and useless. (lol). I use it btw to start
> > > > > bluetooth, and so it wont have to run all the time, just when I
> > > > > need it, so it wont use memory. Very handy, specially I play
> > > > > with Nokia Series 60 phones all the time, they have bluetooth
> > > > > support.
> >
> > I know about it, it just seem that my laptop lacks the sonypi
> > extension. At least the kernel driver doesn't recognize anything.
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have in ~/.Xmodmap:
> > > > > > keycode 223 = XF86Standby
> > > > > > keycode 160 = XF86AudioMute
> > > > > > keycode 176 = XF86AudioRaiseVolume
> > > > > > keycode 174 = XF86AudioLowerVolume
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And in my fvwm file (a bit complicated but not that much)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Key XF86AudioRaiseVolume A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat; amixer
> > > > > > set PCM 100 unmute ; /usr/bin/amixer set Master 5%+ unmute |
> > > > > > sed -n "s/Front \(Left\|Right\): Playback .* \[\(.*\)\]
> > > > > > \[.*\]/\1 \2/p" | osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A center -l2 -i -30
> > > > > > -s 2 -S darkgreen -f "-*-arial-bold-r-*-*-80-*-*-*- *-*-*-*"
> > > > > > -c lightgreen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Key XF86AudioLowerVolume A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat; amixer
> > > > > > set PCM 100 unmute ; /usr/bin/amixer set Master 5%- unmute |
> > > > > > sed -n "s/Front \(Left\|Right \): Playback .* \[\(.*\)\]
> > > > > > \[.*\]/\1 \2/ p" | osd_cat -d 2 -p middle -A center - l2 -i
> > > > > > -30 -s 2 -S darkgreen -f "-*- arial-
> > > > > > bold-r-*-*-80-*-*-*-*-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Key XF86AudioMute A A Exec killall -9 osd_cat; amixer set PCM
> > > > > > 100 unmute ; if (amixer set Master toggle | grep -q '\[on\]');
> > > > > > then echo Un- Mute; else echo Mute; fi | osd_cat -d 2 -p
> > > > > > middle -A center -l1 -s 2 -S gray10 - f "-*-arial- bold-r-*-
> > > > > > *-100- *-*-*-*-*-*-*" -c lightgreen
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Key XF86Standby A A Exec /usr/bin/eject
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for describing, I may use it. At least I can use the
> > > > > commnads to increase or decrease volume, and plug them into my
> > > > > script I have sonypid run when a button is presses.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Use xterm instead of gnome-terminal:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1410 tconnors 15 0 4060 4060 2192 S 0.0 0.4 0:44
> > > > > > > > xterm
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, a terminal emulator doesn't *need* 30m just to
> > > > > > > > freaking run. Yikes!
> > > > > > > Good call, I will look into getting a smaller terminal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I use rxvt-unicode-lite since I want unicode but without the
> > > > > > bells and wisles of the full compile. In my case I just use
> > > > > > screen embeded in the terminal for multiple instances since
> > > > > > the fvwm tabs extention was too heavy for me (it uses perl)
> > > > > > and I didn't want to use kterm or gnome-whatever. Another
> > > > > > option if you want several terminal windows and not just
> > > > > > instances is to run the rxvt server on startup and then just
> > > > > > startup clients, reduces the memory considerably for multiple
> > > > > > terminals.
> > > > >
> > > > > I use usually one, or maximum 2, rarely 3, for chekking real
> > > > > time logs. One problem with xterm I realized, that I cannot copy
> > > > > and past from it to the email. It is hard to troubleshoot like
> > > > > that. Konsole and gnome-terminal allowed me to do so. But the
> > > > > memory is a bigger problem, so I am very happy after all.
> >
> > Its program dependent, but yes, sylpheed and emacs seem to have some
> > problems with pasting from X for some reason.
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As much as I hate pine (I'd hate kmail worse), it only
> > > > > > > > needs:
> > > > > > > > 5065 tconnors 15 0 3736 3736 2272 S 0.2 0.4 0:00
> > > > > > > > pine
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All those other k* programs are just useless helper apps
> > > > > > > > to kde. Blow kde away, and that'll free up a bit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have realized that. Actually, having the machine rebootet,
> > > > > > > with KDM and KDE taken out of auto-start, I got a much
> > > > > > > prettier picture, and a responsive system. ALready
> > > > > > > half-success. When I dont start this kmail prog, I have
> > > > > > > 140MB free mem. Yes, more than half of what I have. Firefox
> > > > > > > eats up 20 or so. I still have 120 left. At that point, I
> > > > > > > start Kmail, and slowly, about one minute it starts, and I
> > > > > > > will have 20 MB left. So it eats 100MB or RAM. That is
> > > > > > > weird. One weird program. It starts all these programs with
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > kmail 30MB
> > > > > > > knotify 14MB
> > > > > > > kded 11MB
> > > > > > > kio_pop3 (as many times as many POP3 accounts I have-each
> > > > > > > uses 10MB) klauncher 10MB
> > > > > > > kdeinit 9.5MB
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is unacceptable. I am looking for a NEW email client. I
> > > > > > > like a GUI email client, that has features such as putting
> > > > > > > emails to the folders I want them to go (filtering) and has
> > > > > > > support for more than one POP account. Any takers on this?
> > > > > > > Will pine do this for me? Can it use the maildir format?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am using sylpheed-claws-gtk2 since I want the RTL support
> > > > > > for hebrew (gtk has unicode support properly built in). It has
> > > > > > a few quirks but was the best I found for my tastes. If you
> > > > > > don't need RTL sylpheed-claws seems more stable and faster and
> > > > > > has better support for maildir (actually sylpheed-claws-gtk2
> > > > > > doesn't have any support for maildir but depending on version
> > > > > > mismatches it sometimes works with the sylpheed-claws maildir
> > > > > > pluging).
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, I have slypheed now myself too, but I didnt go for the
> > > > > -claws version, as "apt-cache search sylpheed" showed the -clwas
> > > > > version as the "bleeding edge email client", so I went for the
> > > > > regular "sylpheed". It seems a bit old school, but I like it
> > > > > already more than kmail, first it starts fast, second VERY
> > > > > IMPORTANT for me, it allows me to set the amount of days it will
> > > > > delete the messages from the server after it was received. So I
> > > > > am inlove with sylpheed, and I finished looking for email
> > > > > clients. Of course I had a rough half-day of converting maildir
> > > > > to mbox, but I am done with it now, and I imported it
> > > > > successfuly. It is quite good now.
> >
> > Its marked as bleeding edge but its should be rather stable and its
> > got quite a few more features. The gtk2 version is a bit buggy (it
> > will crash on rare occasions, but I just start it back up) but I need
> > the right to left support and very few email programs do that
> > properly.
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are happy with the console mutt is great (the only two
> > > > > > reasons I left it is that it didn't have a folder view to see
> > > > > > how many emails are in each folder and switching to a specific
> > > > > > folder can be a bit cumbersome, on the other hand it is very
> > > > > > good at switching to the next folder with unread mail. The
> > > > > > other reason is hebrew support, but that depends on the
> > > > > > terminal or reader)
> > > > > >
> > > > > I only need japanese and hungarian support, and sylpheed does a
> > > > > fairly good job in that case also, so I am happy again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Seriously, get rid of the kde and gnome crap. You don't
> > > > > > > > need it. It won't make your life any happier. And then
> > > > > > > > you will look at the dribbling fools who keep on drooling
> > > > > > > > over the eye-candy, and laugh at their constant need to
> > > > > > > > upgrade to the latest hardware that only makes their room
> > > > > > > > hotter (and fucks up the environment for the rest of us).
> > > > > > > > And you won't need to upgrade your computer, because when
> > > > > > > > it is not running crufty bloated crapware, it's plenty
> > > > > > > > fast enough.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How can I get rid of KDE and Gnome? apt-get uninstall kde
> > > > > > > gnome ??
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Don't run KDE and GNOME programs. Note the clean gtk2 programs
> > > > > > are ok, they don't bring in all the crap only gnome programs
> > > > > > that depend on the gnome libraries (you can see from the
> > > > > > dependencies).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Oh, and encourage your favourite hacker to emphasise code
> > > > > > > > quality and optimisation before useless feaping
> > > > > > > > creaturism.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Other points that the OP mensioned:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its a bit tricky to setup, but if you like nice gui login but
> > > > > > want something lighter then kdm you can use qingy
> > > > > > (qingy.sf.net) which uses the frame buffer. I'm afraid that
> > > > > > there is no debian package though. Personally I use wdm at the
> > > > > > moment, when I have some time I am planning to setup qingy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a window manager I use fvwm, but its a taste issue. Its a
> > > > > > bit harder to setup but is very flexible.
> > > > > I am happy now with xfce, but I want to try even smaller ones,
> > > > > so I will give it a shot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For text I use lyx to produce latex documents, but I write
> > > > > > math so office suits are mostly irrelevant anyway (and tex is
> > > > > > what all journals in my field take anyway, some will also
> > > > > > accept word, but they are a few a far between (thank god ;-)
> > > > > > ).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For a browser I settled on opera which is fast, light and a
> > > > > > but more complient with IE only sites then mozilla. The three
> > > > > > main downsides with it are that it not free (you either accept
> > > > > > an advertisement bar or you pay to get a serial), it doesn't
> > > > > > change proxy server setups on the fly for some reason, and it
> > > > > > uses the mozilla plugin for loading pdf files which has a
> > > > > > memory leak, reaches over a Gig on occasion, on the other hand
> > > > > > it has an options to load previous session on startup so you
> > > > > > can just close/kill it and reopen to solve the problem. It
> > > > > > also has a debian package (on their site, not the repository)
> > > > > > so its easy to install.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will try opera. Until this point I still used Firefox. Opera
> > > > > can display java and flash, macromedia, other stuff like that.?
> > > > > I ocassionally need them. Or I can just keep firefox for those
> > > > > times,,....>
> >
> > It recognized and loads all the mozilla plugins so there is no problem
> > with java/flash etc. It even runs mplayer through the mozilla-mplayer
> > plugin.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > > For the record, my machine comes up with a bit
> > > > > > under 30M ram usage running wdm, X, rxvt terminal with a
> > > > > > screen session running in it.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow, that is outstanding. I am using 70MB after boot, with all
> > > > > what I have, one xterm session, and the sylpheed open, with X
> > > > > and XFce. That is way better than about 10MB free (now 190MB
> > > > > free) when I used KDE and KDM and all the K***crap. I am happy I
> > > > > started this thread, and I want to thank you all for helping. Of
> > > > > course I still keep looking for good ideas. At the end, I will
> > > > > make a website from what I learnd.
> >
> > I didn't try with sylpheed but ps shows about 20MB usage (which is
> > more then I like but better then others) so it my machine should tip
> > the scales at around 50MB for a similar startup setup.
> >
> > I do use suspend almost always (software-suspend-2) so I very rarely
> > cold boot (maybe twice a month) but I think startup time is around a
> > minute.
> >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bence
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
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