Re: apt and java
Omry Yadan <omry_y <at> inter.net.il> writes:
>
> Dalibor Topic wrote:
> >How much does making 'good java programs' run on free runtimes 'cost' Debian
> >users? ;)
> >
> >
> Now, that depends on the maturity of free runtimes.
> both in terms of stability (which I don't know anything about yet), and
> in terms of level of compatibility to sun's jvm's provided API's.
I fail to see a proof of the 'it costs debian users' assertion you made in
this response.
> Its not about me.
> its about all those poor souls out there, looking to install their
> favorites free java programs, only to find that there is no trace of
> them anywhere in apt.
Then please help those poor souls that you care about by testing free
software written in java with the free runtimes and giving a hand to the
developers & packagers of the respective software, for example by telling
the packagers that some software now works with Kaffe, sablevm, gij,
IKVM or JamVM. Or that it doesn't.
It's that easy to reach what you want. I recommend checking out
http://java.debian.net/index.php/MovingJavaToMain and helping to get things
moving faster.
> I will find a way to run what I want, but for most users, who are
> spoiled by the excellence of the apt system, it will be too hard.
When a package is in main, it's the usual apt-get excellence. I don't see a
problem there.
> So let me state again what I am after:
> To provide users with the ability to install most java programs
> seamlessly, today.
Good, me too. :)
> not when the programs have been modified (if needed) to work with the
> free runtimes, or when the free runtimes are ready for them.
As Debian can't legally & safely distribute Sun's (or any other
sun-derived) VM, that's not possible, afaict. If you don't like that,
you can try to get Sun to fix their broken licenses. Good luck, though
I think it's a major waste of effort :)
> I want to achieve it in a way which still pushes the free runtimes
> forward, and does not make them obsolete.
That would not make them obsolete. They are simply playing in a different
league from Sun: they are free, unencumbered software. Just like
Solaris 10 doesn't make Debian obsolete. :)
> and of course, I want to achieve it in a way which is legal (from sun's
> point of view), and that is compatible with the Debian spirit.
People have been looking at various Sun's (and other proprietary VM
vendor's) licenses for 7 years now, and there was no way to do what you
want in the context of Debian. The licenses are filled with hillarious,
contradictory claims, and are legally amibiguous, to say the least. So
Debian is not going to get into the risk of distibuting such dubiously
licensed code. And it's definitely not in the 'Debian spirit' to force
or even encourage people to use dubiously licensed code, so your effort,
though no doubt well-meant, is beating on the wrong bush. There is nothing
Debian can do to support Sun, because Sun *does not want* to be supported
by a volunteer project like debian according to their license terms.
That ball is in Sun's park.
You can either chose to continue beating the dead horse, or do something
about it. If you chose the latter, you can either go and tell Sun to do
what you want them to do, or you can help to make that sort of questions
irrelevant by improving the support for and from free runtimes. People
who have done the latter, have made some great progress on getting Java
programs into Debian's main distribution. You, too, can be a part of
the team working on the solution, rather than spending your time on
something that you can not influence (Sun's licensing policy).
> >And you can back up that 'pretty much garanteed' claim?
> >
> >
> clearly not, besides common sense, and some experience.
Postulating your 'commons sense' and 'some experience' as a
fact does not count, so ... claim dismissed :)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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