Re: apt and java
Omry Yadan <omry_y <at> inter.net.il> writes:
> >Making Java and Debian closer is simple: use free runtimes, report bugs &
> >help us make them better than Sun's Java implementation is all respects that
> > you care about.
> >
> >
>
> This approach is costing Debian users many good java programs which rely
> on sun's jvm, or at least have never been tested on any other jvm.
How much does making 'good java programs' run on free runtimes 'cost' Debian
users? ;)
> correct me if I am wrong, but you are concerned mainly about these issues:
Unfortunately, those are not my main concerns ;)
> *if we allow sun's java in in a standard way (not necessarily as a real
> deb), it will mean free java programs which rely on sun's jdk will not
> be able to into free.
No. Java programs can go into main when they build & work with a free runtime.
That has nothing to do with some non-free Java implementation.
> * and it will mean less QA for the free java runtimes, because less
> people will risk using the free one, when they have the reliable one
> from sun.
It is not certified for Debian, so you're making reliability claims that Sun
doesn't make. I'm curious, on what factual, verifiable basis do you make them?
> not all users want to live on the bleeding edge.
If you don't like some aspects of the current free runtimes, you're most welcome
to help fix the problems you have found with them. If that's not good enough for
you, you can simply ignore them 'till they are ready for your needs. Noone is
forcing users to use them.
> You make it sound I like proposed to get the binary, hack the license
> out of it, and re-distrebute it.
> :)
I was under the impression that you were looking for ways to include Sun's code
into debian but to avoid Sun's license. I'm sorry if I somehow misinterpreted
you. ;)
> yes, sun does not officially support debian, but its pretty much
> guarentied to work on a any system which is as Linux as the intersection
> between the two Linux distrobutions sun does offecially support,
> practicly meaning any Linux.
And you can back up that 'pretty much garanteed' claim?
Searching for 'jvm crash debian' on google suggests otherwise, as does the
LD_ASSUME_KERNEL experience a lot of people had on ix86 with Sun's JVM. Googling
for 'mozilla java linux crash' gives me more than 80 000 hits. Pretty much
guaranteed to crash, I guess. ;)
> Jan proposed some descent things, I did not see any objections, yet -
> one year later, its still no where to be found in either main or contrib.
Then you haven't read the whole thread. I've objected to a lot of things he said
during the discussion, so have others.
> >Of course it does. Without gcj you couldn't run Java code on a few
> > dozens of
> >platforms. Sun's 'anywhere' barely covers a handful of platforms.
> > Kaffe, for
> >example, has been ported to more than 70 platforms, including
> > playstation2,
> >arm-riscos or linux-sh, for example. Kaffe has been actively
> >helping the
> >portability of java code since 1996.
> >
> >
> you mean compile java code, not run java code.
You can compile it down to native or to bytecode, and run the resulting
executable code natively, or run the bytecode with gij, or another runtime
engine. gcj enables you to run & to compile java code.
> once its native, its no longer java.
What do you think a JIT makes out of java bytecode? ;)
> although the idea of playstation2 java is cool ;).
Yeah :) The craziest Kaffe port so far is for Cray, though ;)
> >If they prove to be good enough, then someone comes up and writes
> > better
> >programs as free software. Happened with Unix. Happened with C.
> >Happened with
> >C++. Happens with Java right now. You too can be a part of it, you
> >don't have to
> >put yourself in a position where you depend on Sun and their
> >choice of licensing.
> >
> >
> Well, I`ll find some time to have a look, sounds interesting enough.
You're most welcome.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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