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Re: More on the future LDAP admin gui in Debian Edu

On Monday 25 October 2010 01:31 Klaus Knopper wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 12:26:49AM +0200, Jürgen Leibner wrote:
> > On Sunday 24 October 2010 23:20 Klaus Knopper wrote:
> > > Hello Jürgen,
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 10:33:45PM +0200, Jürgen Leibner wrote:
> > > > On Sunday 24 October 2010 21:55 Philipp Huebner wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > On 23/10/10 17:14, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > > > > >>> who in skolelinux is activly working on integrating
> > > > > >>> cipux?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Noone.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which makes me wonder why the people using it in
> > > > > > Rheinland-Pfalz are not doing this. Or why you dont do it.
> > > > > > Care to explain?
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO this is a very good question which I would also love to
> > > > > see answered.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > +1
> > > >
> > > > ... and me would also like to hear a statement / answer  from
> > > > the project leader of the RLP project to the question above to
> > > > get it answered from the officials.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure whether I qualify as "official", but from my point
> > > of view as coordinator of developers for Skolelinux-RLP, all of
> > > our previous attempts of working together with the Skolelinux
> > > community, trying to integrate new features and
> > > options/requirements that are necessary by (german) law for
> > > german schools, have been turned down as being "not very
> > > interesting for mainstream Skolelinux" (exam mode) or "violating
> > > the policy" (italc), which is kind of frustrating, as you can
> > > imagine.
> >
> > For me, you quallify as an official.
> > As I'm having an eye on CipUX since it was first shown to the
> > project on the gathering in Erkelenz (Germany) in 2006 iirc and
> > being part of the CipUX-Project at that time where the decision was
> > done to choose LWAT and not CipUX, you can beleave me, that I can
> > understand that kind of frustration.
> LWAT was OK, when it was still working. On the previous-last
> Skolelinux edition, LWAT even worked parallel to CipUX.
> > But for me it is much more frustrating to see people with that huge
> > amount of knowledge like you, Petter Reinholdsen and others, not
> > pulling at the same end of the rope.
> Actually, I think we do. We just have different priorities.

Good to hear.

> My job in RLP is making sure that things required for our schools are
> present at the end of the project, which means, I have to work with
> fixed deadlines as well as regulations determined by law and our
> project requirements specification that was given to me.
> Petter does not have  to follow any of these restrictions,
> and I can understand if he thinks that they are extra work not
> currently relevant to Skolelinux. 
> Also, release schedule of Skolelinux updates is much more relaxed
> than ours, because as usual in free software, mainstream Skolelinux
> is ready when it's ready, while our tools have to be production-ready
> as soon as schools are scheduled for installation.

I agree and I'm comfortable with your explanation of the different 
basements your are working on. 

> > > Besides administration of classes, this mainly concerns
> > > examination modes and requirements for privacy and teacher
> > > supervision of desktops, disk quotas and x2go as replacement for
> > > ltsp.
> > >
> > > Before I get too much into details which you probably don't
> > > intended to hear, would you please define for me the part "not
> > > doing this" in the quote you voted +1 for:
> > >
> > >    "Which makes me wonder why the people using it in
> > > Rheinland-Pfalz are not doing this."
> >
> > As Holger Levsen asks: "who in skolelinux is activly working on
> > integrating cipux?" which is "doing this".
> Sorry, I think you missed my point.
> None of us can "integrate CipUX into Skolelinux". We need an official
> Debian-Edu maintainer to do this. None of our developers is capable
> of making an official decision on which packages go into Skolelinux
> and which don't (at least I don't recall having one in our group
> yet).

That _is_exactly_ the point I wanted to be clarified.
So I suspect you havn't read this: 
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Contribute/Development or asked to for 
that information?

> We WISH that all of our stuff goes into Skolelinux as optional 
> add-on some day, as soon as it's complete (and most of it is), but we
> are not the decision makers here.

The french team has done their own add-on-cd in 2006. Their packages are 
until now in the skolelinux svn. Have you tried to come in to the svn 
with your packages?

CipUX was added to the package lists for being on the CD/DVD by Xavier 
Oswald in 2006 as the debian-edu changelog tells:
  [ Xavier Oswald ]
  * main-server task:
    - Depend on moodle-debian-edu-theme, moodle-cipux, cipux-all
    - Recommend moodle-courses-fr, debian-edu-fr-all, 
      These packages contain French data so they are reduce to 
    - Depend on cipux-common, cipux-cibot, cipux-cat-webmin, cipux-rpc,
      cipux-profile. These packages come from the cipux repository.

Why not try to come in again?
As you can see how GOsa² came in, why didn't you try to do it the same 

> What we DID is, installing CipUX on top of official Skolelinux,
> partly from existing packages made by Jonas Smedegaard, and the rest
> by following Kurt Gramlichs long installation instructions for those
> parts that are not officially packaged yet. Also, we created a new
> GUI (CATWeasel) designed to represent only the small subset of LDAP
> tasks needed by teachers and students, while most sysadmin tools are
> used by supporters in our schools and don't need to be accessible by
> teachers. We forked italc (since we were told not to - under any
> circumstances - change existing packages in Debian because some kind
> of assumed "policy violation" that I don't fully comprehend) for
> interfacing with examination mode and internet access control and a
> HTML widget to integrate with CipUX, for easy use by teachers from
> their desktop. In fact, there is a lot of work done in those yet
> "unofficial" packages that are designed to easily be installed on top
> of Skolelinux as well as Debian Lenny.

Very good work, but why did you build your own infrastructure and did 
not use ours?

> > So the question I agreed to is:
> > "Why are the people using it in Rheinland-Pfalz, are not activly
> > working on integrating CipUX in skolelinux?"
> >
> > > What is "this"?
> >
> > " integrating CipUX in skolelinux"
> So, again, what is "integrating CipUX in Skolelinux" other than
> deciding that existing installable packages are accepted and possibly
> modified in their initial setup so that they fit in? How can we do
> this? Not only for CipUX but also for italc and linbo (which are
> independent of CipUX)?

This question I leave to be answered by the so called skolelinux 
developers, cause I'm not one. ;-)

> Unfortunately, the developer base working on CipUX itself is very
> small, but, as Jonas already said, the core parts of CipUX are
> already in Debian.
> What needs to be changed in order to make these packages fit into an
> official Debian blend, needs to be done by an official Debian-Edu
> maintainer, or am I wrong here? It's not sufficient that our packages
> run fine on our own Skolelinux installations.

What do you think, how fine your packages will run on top of skolelinux 
in the future, or how many work you will have on upgrades, if you not 
work on skolelinux to make sure it will be devloped to fit to the needs 
of CipUX?

> > > What does it mean?
> >
> > Making CipUX being on the install medium and provide it ready to
> > use and preconfigured at first boot after installation.
> So, how can I make CipUX "appear" on the official Skolelinux install
> medium?

See http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Contribute/Development and begin 
doing it. Only thinking about doesn't move something.

> And for the preconfiguration, maybe a hint for Jonas as Debian
> package maintainer for CipUX, and Christian as main CipUX developer,
> would be helpful every now and then.I agree that GOSA probably has
> more features than CipUX right now, but then, CipUX is more of a
> Middleware or Framework than an "admin tool", and its RPC server is
> good for supporting different Clients as frontend, which maybe makes
> it more flexible.  Installing both, GOSA and CipUX at the same time,
> may be complicated because of possibly different incompatible LDAP
> schema addons. I did not check on this yet, though. Letting the user
> decide which one to install, and adding a "Conflicts:" tag just in
> case, could be an option. But we can hardly decide on our own that
> CipUX should be on the official Skolelinux install medium, so, we
> just create our own add-on-CD for now in order to be able to meed the
> deadlines for school installations.

The only thing to decide for you, is from my point of view: "Do you want 
to step in and take the long run integrating all the famous work done 
already in the RLP project, beside your deadlines in the RLP-Project?"

Greetings , Jürgen

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