Re: the .org proposal or "join forces"
Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 12:58:44 +0100
> Steffen Joeris <Steffen.Joeris@skolelinux.de> wrote:
>
>>>>I still have a hard time understanding the difference between
>>>>skolelinux development and Debian development. I have no interest in
>>>>building up a parallel to Debian.
>>>
>>>Who talks about that?
>
> This thread:
>
> Consolidating and expanding the organisation around development of
> Skolelinux instead of using the already-existing resources of Debian is
> building up a parallel to Debian.
We are not building something in paralell to Debian, We are extending
debian, into some place wer debian wont go.
>>>You should know that i agree in getting all stuff back into debian,
>
> So do Ubuntu. And I don't say that as a way of cursing - but as a way
> of describing: Ubuntu puts itself ahead of Debian with
> regards to development, and wants to pass all of its findings back to
> Debian at some point. But the business model is to duplicate Debian in
> the process.
One big difference is that we use stable Debian as our base. And very
few packages are patched to fit our needs.
> If Debian-edu sees itself as within Debian, rather than ahead of or
> besides, then use Debian resources whenever possible.
not ahead, not beside, but on top.
> Debian has a website: http://www.debian.org/ . Not a CMS, but static
> pages written in Web Meta Language and stored in CVS. This is not the
> easiest way to post content, but remember that we are talking about the
> _development_ here, *not* the school administrators. One reason to use
> this relatively inconvenient system is that it has potential to get
> translated into *lots* of different languages, and thus better reach
> decision makers globally.
hmm, who can contribute there - DD only ?
> Debian has source maintainance tools: http://alioth.debian.org/ .
> We use that already. Great! I just recommend that we avoid maintaining
> ordinary packages like italc in that project and concentrate on stuff
> directly related to the Debian-edu/Skolelinux infrastructure. Don't get
> me wrong - italc shouldn't be dropped, just maintained in a separately
> setup project[1], possibly with overlap in developers, but maybe now or
> later handed over to others more interested in simple packaging
> maintainance than in the larger perspectives of Debian-edu.
Yes we use it. more and more.
> Debian has a wiki: http://wiki.debian.org/ . Let's use that! Again,
> don't confuse globally oriented development coordination and locally
> oriented efforts. It makes good sense for Skolelinux in germany to
> speak german and have an own wiki to strengthen their sense of
> community. But it also makes good sense to move their internationally
> oriented pages to somewhere shared among all Debian-edu developers, and
> I believe that place is really the Debian wiki - to mingle more with
> Debian instead of drifting off.
Yes, some of us are using it. And we should probably use it even more.
But I do like to have things in cvs/svn, and edit things in a normal
editor. I dont think wiki.debian.org let me do that.
> Debian has a planet: http://planet.debian.org/ . Let's use that. We are
> Debian, right? Or what makes us so special that we (developers!) do not
> want to hang out with our cousins in other parts of the mother project?
Hmm, this is a place were I guess only DD's ha an account.
> Debian has a bug tracker: http://bts.debian.org/ . Let's use that, and
> request one or more pseudo-packages created for Skolelinux
> instrastructural meta bugs. What we win is easier integration with
> Debian - 'cause our end goal is complete absorbtion into Debian, right?
OK, this is an interesting point. We have our own packages that we work
on on a daily basis. And most, if not all of them are also uploaded into
Debian. At some point I filed a bug on a package that we uses in
debian-edu, but we used a newer than the one in debian-unstable. I dont
remember if our maintainer called me, or if it was on irc (i could find
out if you want to know), and was really angry, because I had filed a
bug on a version that he not yet had uploaded into debian. He told me
that I could get blacklisted from bts from that. Do we want that to
happen with our users ? I dont.
>>>but nevertheless we need space for our own stuff (maybe call it
>>>debian-edu.org). We are at a point where we have special stuff for
>>>our own.
>
> Our end goal is full and complete absorbtion into Debian, right? So any
> and all "special stuff" is something we want to either get rid of or
> have Debian adopt, right? So let's work on that rather than work on a
> more solid foundation of those non-Debian paths.
I dont think we will ever be there, mainly because we _have_to_ continue
to use the stable debian as the base for our development. But we need to
get our things mature so they can be adopted by Debian.
>>>because now I see that your fear becomes true. We are still working
>>>in local teams
> Just to clarify: I find local teams very important. And those should
> work however they see fit. But share whatever possible, and the
> _development_ part of Debian-edu/Skolelinux in my opinion is best
> shared in the context of Debian (when possible), rather on its own.
Yes, when possible, but we need something between "every local team
builds his own addon-cd", and "we only use debian
sources/repositories/whatever"
> [1] I currently maintain 40+ packages for Debian, but is (slooowly)
> switching to have them all team-maintained. At first with myself as
> sole team member but making it easier to let others in. But I do not
> create a giant packages-formerly-maintained-by-Jonas project but
> instead smaller ones for related packages (like icecast-related ones
> or GD-related ones) or even single packages (like yaird that holds
> both Debian packaging using SVN and upstream source using TLA and a
> single mailinglist). The main consideration is to group things that
> would be intering for same developers to mess directly with.
Well good for you.
I'm not sure if I ever will become a DD, not because I lack the skills,
but more like "Sorry - I have other things to do than discuss things
about the GFDL and why it cant be included into Debian"
I mean, there are people in Debian that spend a lot of time making sure
other people packages doesn't violate some rule. I'm glad they do,
because then I can keep on hacking, to get Debian-edu in a state were we
can release a stable version. It doesn't matter if it's 1 or 2 years
after the last Stable Debian version was release. lets just hope we can
deliver before we have to work on pld-stable.
--
Finn-Arne Johansen
faj@bzz.no http://bzz.no/
Debian-edu Developer and Solution provider
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